32. Alex Holder Opens Up About Mindless Spending, Debt Hangovers and Finding an Authentic Life

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This week I speak to lifestyle writer and author of Open Up: The power of talking about money, Alex Holder.

Alex’s story starts with a humble working-class childhood in northern England. Money was tight and peer pressure to have the latest fashion brands caused Alex some embarrassment as a teenager.

University life in London saw Alex accumulate significant consumer debt, as she enjoyed all that the capital had to offer.

A lucky break as an intern at an advertising agency led to a phenomenally successful career which saw Alex go from earning £15,000 to over £130,000 per annum in less than 10 years!

But despite her high income, Alex spent every penny she earned and more, to maintain the lavish and glamorous lifestyle which she thought was a sign of success and that her peers expected of her. She became more and more disillusioned with her career in advertising, and felt shame and embarrassment at her flippant attitude to money and increasingly precarious financial situation.

The birth of her son and a desire to become a full-time writer was the epiphany she needed to take stock of her life, reassess her priorities and improve her relationship with money.

Going through cold turkey on her lifestyle spending enabled Alex to get out of debt, build savings, change her career, and move her family to live in Portugal.

As Alex says “Earning more money wasn’t more freedom. Learning to live on less money was real freedom. [You need to remember that] you're not alone. Seek out other people [who] are in the same situation, because often getting advice from people, peers that [are living a] similar life to you is much more valuable than getting advice from an expert.”

This episode is packed with great insights on impulsive spending, work and identity, dealing with peer pressure, the importance of priorities and making positive changes to your relationship with money.

Episode Transcript

Jason Butler 0:08
Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. Real Money stories is the only UK podcast which shares personal money stories of everyday people. So their insights can help you to be better with money. My name is Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money, journey, or world on the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from the stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more. Hello there. Thanks for joining us on another episode of Real Money stories, the podcast where we talk to real people about their money journey, Jason Butler and I'm really really excited today to be speaking to some one To get on the show for months and months and months after I read an amazing book that she wrote last year called Open up the power of talking about money. And I'm talking here about Alex Holder. Hello, Alex. By now, let me just set the scene in case anyone hasn't read any of this stuff. I just need to give people a little bit of background because I think it's worth saying I mean, you're Alex is a freelance writer. She's a consultant, she writes for all sorts of people, I mean, guardian or refinery, 29, you name it, and she's been on the BBC and the New Yorker. She's done campaigning on gender, pay, you name it, she's done it. And actually, she's got a couple of really exciting and I think quite interesting accolades here, which she will be too modest to tell anyone, but she's been named as business insiders. 30th 30 most creative women globally and listed by the Evening Standard as one of today's five inspiring female leaders. Respect and babies amazing. Now, just before we get into it, I just just want to make this clear to people if there's one book, you need to read about money, I would say go buy Alex's book. And I'm not saying just to get sales up for although, you know, I think, you know, all contributions gratefully received is a lovely, beautifully written book, full of so many amazing stories, including our own, which we're now going to talk about, but also lots of people who she met randomly. And I just think it's such a wonderfully written book. And I'm really pleased that you did it. Alex, thank you for that.

Alex Holder 2:27
So let me tell you, especially from someone that you I get scared of people who actually know about finance reading it?

Unknown Speaker 2:33
No, not at all. But here's the thing. You know, before we get into the main thing of your story, there's no such thing as knowing all the answers, right? And no one has everyone has a different perspective. And although you may be a subject matter expert, technically or you may have met lots of people mean you know the answers because you're seeing the world through your own eyes, right. That's what we do with the show is we try and see things from other people's perspective, right so that we're not necessarily Follow the exactly same path. But we might learn something for our own journey. Is that fair to say?

Unknown Speaker 3:07
totally fair. It's kind of I guess why I wrote the book from very much an outsider's perspective on money. I always thought it wasn't a topic of conversation for me. And I guess by writing it I kind of prove that anyone can go out and talk about money. Yeah, I'm making make it a topic for them.

Unknown Speaker 3:23
And this show is all about breaking down the taboo or talking about money let's get it out there. Let's make it like mental health was 50 you know, bring it into the mental health like it was say 50 years ago mental health is now actually mainstream gender pay disparity. We want to get money let's just get it out there and that's what I loved about your book. So enough about the book brilliant as it is. Let's go back to let's go back to little Alex so you know, on this show, I always like to go back to the sort of early money memories or the you know, this first tentative things when you realise that money was a thing.

Unknown Speaker 3:55
Okay, so my first money memories, and so I grew up north Didn't come from much money we're always fine. My parents were teachers. And but we definitely didn't feel like we earn a lot and as far as class wise, we came from a working class background. And I've also got lots of brothers and sisters so the money had to kind of stretch quite far. And I think I always had a really good work ethic and I was always taught if you work hard, you you'll kind of be fine in life. I was never given any financial education I'd say no one sat me down and said this is how a budget works. I really wish they had before I went to university and I, I think, I guess I went into adult life copying how my parents had been with money but forgetting that they came from a different generation and had different assets. You know, they they bought a house when it when you could buy a house very easily say and therefore they could kind of pop holidays on credit cards without that being a big issue because they had a been a problem. See that had some money in it. And I repeated their what they did, and I got lots of credit cards very young and ended up being in debt quite early on in my adult life.

Unknown Speaker 5:10
So what can you remember what was the earliest sort of memory of money?

Unknown Speaker 5:15
I guess it was there was some stress around it, whether we had enough to

Unknown Speaker 5:21
do everything we want. I definitely didn't feel comfortable asking my parents for money because I knew that, you know, that they didn't feel like we had as much as everyone else at school, there was a definite awareness of that. I had the usual childhood shame of being embarrassed that we shopped at Neto or quick save, and that our car didn't have the right wrench. This all sounds ridiculous now, but when you're a kid, you know you and I grew up just outside Liverpool and brand names really mattered. And my parents didn't buy into that kind of consumerism which I now really respect by the time Exactly. And he didn't.

Unknown Speaker 6:01
But that's the paradox, isn't it? People who have often the least or earning a great deal feel the need to imbue themselves with externalities so that people can can accept them. Although they're perceived that need to be accepted or fit in, and that's particularly cute when you're young, right?

Unknown Speaker 6:17
Yeah, I like to now see it that yeah, it was, you know, you put 30 pound trainers on and you could that would that was your status there and that was what you needed to kind of, I guess, operate in that society.

Unknown Speaker 6:33
So what was your brand of choice then onto the trainers from Can you remember lesson

Unknown Speaker 6:36
always

Unknown Speaker 6:37
create? You stay true to the cause?

Unknown Speaker 6:42
You know, I fight with consumerism all the time. I love shopping and I really love clothes. It's definitely stayed in me. Yeah, I know that. I can see how much of a brand magnet I am and how easily convinced I am to buy things just from my customers. You know, I'll be on I was on Instagram earlier on today and ended up on a shopping site. I was just disappointed in myself. I'm not going out at the moment. We're in lockdown. No one's seeing me. I don't need any more clothes yet. They're still managing to get me.

Unknown Speaker 7:12
Yeah. But here's the thing. And I think he is provided. So always through your book and everything I've ever written and done is the you're aware of it. And that's the first step, right?

Unknown Speaker 7:22
Yeah, you're aware. And one of the things that everyone

Unknown Speaker 7:24
needs to realise is that learning to be aware is the key thing. So so as you were growing up as a teenager, I think you did do jobs, didn't you? I think in your book, you say you did lots of less glamorous jobs, but lots of stuff where you know, you did get money, is that right?

Unknown Speaker 7:38
Yeah, I mean, I helped the milkman out and I was 13. And then at 15 I am I worked in a care home for all people. I worked there for four years. And then at university I worked in snappy snaps. So I've always had like a Saturday job or an evening job. And so I guess always had some some, you know, some of my own Money, disposable income like,

Unknown Speaker 8:02
and how did you? How did you never because you went to university that is always a baptism of fire when it comes to money, isn't it? For some people, it's kind of the first time they've had to actually kind of kind of manage right? And then some don't. So how did you navigate that?

Unknown Speaker 8:16
Well, I went to university in London and like so coming from up north that was, it was a it was a culture shock. And I was suddenly surrounded by people that had a lot of money and definitely have a different wealth. I guess I survived by getting maximising my student overdrafts getting a few from different banks. And you weren't actually allowed to do but you could just fill it out for

Unknown Speaker 8:43
diversification. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 8:45
yeah. I bought and credit cards really early on. And so I just I started although I always earned money on my parents helped me out with money, and I should have done better with money. I had I didn't I just saw it was a time of I was at university in early 2000s. And it was a time of very easy credit.

Unknown Speaker 9:07
So this is about 20 years ago and you were there was there was sort of student finance he coming, it wasn't all free, there was it you were starting to have to pay, you know, or at least at least the government was gonna give you the money to have the education. So you did come out of uni with some form of graduate tax or student loan to repay. Is that right?

Unknown Speaker 9:24
Yeah. So I I think I probably got about 10,000 pounds per year. So it came out about 30 grand.

Unknown Speaker 9:31
And I know in your book, you say your mom and dad are very different people. And we we learned a lot of things, don't we from our parents. And I think you said you took you took after your mum more in the sense that your mom was always the optimist and always knew that you you know, you could go on the holiday to Greece. So how did how did that influence that kind of the parent dynamic? Because that affects a lot of us, doesn't it?

Unknown Speaker 9:54
Yeah, so my dad is very sensible. And now when I think about money, I think more about money. So

Unknown Speaker 10:01
first lent me some money. And he said, If you pay it back, I will always in the future lend you money again, if you don't pay this back like that's as done kind of thing and it was a very good lesson actually, because I guess that's how credit cards work as well. If you borrow money and you pay back your mortgage or you pay back the credit cards, you can probably always lend again. And whereas my mum, she would she didn't buy into she like said she wasn't a big person for brands but she would always find the money for a holiday, no matter what. And that's still in me as well. By want something I will probably find a way to pay for it. I'm not very good at budgeting to a point where I go without things I really want.

Unknown Speaker 10:47
So you came out of uni kind of in taxes, what you're saying you had you manage to work and have a bit of government that you didn't come out with. Did you come out with lots of overdrafts and credit cards around your neck or was it

Unknown Speaker 10:59
okay, I did. I think there was an

Unknown Speaker 11:02
the normalisation of, of debt that student loans, but so many people take on debt at 18 by taking on a student loan, and I think that normalises it, and I think it's really dangerous.

Unknown Speaker 11:14
Well, of course you I don't you know my view that it is and Martin Lewis has caught up with me for about five years after I said it is this is these are not these are not debts. These are deferred graduate taxes but they called them debts The Blair government because it was politically not expedient to call it tax because they were meant to be seen as the low tax party. So that's actually how it happened. That's just the truth. Yeah, cuz I know the people behind who actually designed it so so that's why they call it attack alone, because it didn't didn't seem like it was attacked by to put that to one side. So you came out with you'd invested in yourself one way or another for your education and your social life. And then did you go straight into work or did you sort of take yourself off around the world for a bit of a learning about yourself?

Unknown Speaker 11:56
I did a few months unpaid internships are very low. paid internships, amazingly to get into the advertising industry, which, obviously Now, most of the good agencies don't do unpaid internships, but at the time, that's what you had to do. I did it by doing lots of silver service and sticking with my snappy snaps job. So how

Unknown Speaker 12:18
did you know that sorry to jump in? Did you know that you wanted a job in advertising? Right then what did you fall into that?

Unknown Speaker 12:23
No, I, I went to St. Martin's and they had a quite a vocational pathway in the unit, like the degree I did. That led people to advertising. I knew I wanted to be creative. And I put inverted commas around that because and I could now question how creative it is. But I it was quite at the time. It was a very appealing job to me. I knew that you got to travel the world and be on shoots and the kind of solving problems and you also got to work with a friend to get jobs in pairs. Right.

Unknown Speaker 12:57
Yeah, was always quite fun.

Unknown Speaker 12:59
So you started Your first job as an intern and did you start out with a friend then?

Unknown Speaker 13:04
I did. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 13:05
God, deary me. So you were you were partners in crime. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 13:11
In London with you? It was unpaid, though. So how did you how did you navigate that with no money? London's not cheap is it?

Unknown Speaker 13:18
Just by working in evenings, and you could get paid something?

Unknown Speaker 13:28
I think it was like 200 pounds a week he got paid. But you know, rent back then was like, I think I was paying 400 a month so you could do it, but it was it wasn't easy.

Unknown Speaker 13:39
So waitressing and sort of jobs like that on top, just go a little extra. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 13:44
I actually got my first job because that I after work after leaving this unpaid work, unpaid internship that day, that evening, I was silver serving and my boss was at the event while I was still the serving up, and I don't realise what I was doing that not only was I Standing up to work for them every day. But I was also then going to work all evening. And I think he certainly had a moment of like, oh, like that's not sustainable. And they obviously really want this job. So they take it as a job.

Unknown Speaker 14:12
Oh, right. So So the fact that you're so at this time when your boss saw you, that actually turned out to your advantage because he knew that you okay? Yeah. So you got a job? They gave you a job full time then did they paid proper paid job?

Unknown Speaker 14:25
No, it was 15,000 pounds a year, which even I think was 2006 that was not a lot of money. But it was survivable. And

Unknown Speaker 14:40
I still I remember going to borrow taking as soon as I got a fixed salary going to the bank to take out a loan because I knew they'd give me money Then why did you want the loan? What was that for? I just knew tells no wants to buy things like a bad you know, 50,000 didn't stretch enough to buy any like big ticket. it at any one time,

Unknown Speaker 15:02
right? So at that stage, then you've got yourself into a kind of where you think you want to go as a career, you've got a wage coming in, you've still got the depths from the history, you've got a bit more debt because you now know to wherever you're living and you're live on the floor. What was your relationship with money at that stage? How did you can you can you remember how you felt about money? Did you just an ultimate optimist and thought so it will turn up or did you? Did you realise that perhaps you might need to be thinking a bit more or was that in the back of your mind was already guilt? I mean, how did it How did it How is it evolving as a young woman

Unknown Speaker 15:33
so when I first got when I first got the 15,000 pounds salary, I remember feeling so relieved that I knew exactly how much money was coming in every month. There wasn't a lot of I knew that if I did my finances at the moment, you know, my wage hit my bank account, that I paid my rent and I paid off bills, and I knew I had to last the rest of the month. And I remember that feeling very relieved and quite safe with that knowledge because previously is A student i'd often missed rent payments through, I'd often got into arrears and credit card, credit cards even back then, because when you get given the student loan as well, you get given it in three instalments throughout the year, which is another ridiculous way of giving young people money. And but I really I often look back at that and think, gosh, I wish I'd carried on with that budgeting mentality. Because what actually happened is I I say quickly, but I did over the next few years, I got pay hikes. And in that industry at that time, whenever I got a pay increase, it wasn't like a 2% pay increase. I'd go up by five to 10,000 pounds per time, okay, because that's how, so I went from 15 to 20 to 24 to 30, and then after that, I went from 30 to 50. And then I went from 50 to 90 to one to 130. So And that was over a period of six, seven years. So although I wasn't, I guess I wasn't optimistic in the sense that I looked at the people slightly above me. And they were just earning more and more money. And I did, I was lucky enough not to ever get made redundant or anything, I did just follow this. So although I had a horrible attitude towards money, which was very disrespectful, and I didn't budget, and I just kind of saw it as something to spend until it was into like, my account was topped up again at the end of the month. And luckily, there was always enough money coming in to cover the credit cards or cover the money that I had, you know, I just switched it.

Unknown Speaker 17:42
So at this stage, then you you is this feeding your cycle of kind of not needing to look at stuff, have whatever I want when I want it, because the money is always going up so that even though you're spending money you're earning, you kind of feel like you're getting ahead, right? Yeah. So let's go

Unknown Speaker 18:00
In my overdraft, and I still had credit cards amazingly, but I've never really had to worry about it. I remember once I didn't pay my gas bill and bailiffs came round, but that was just because I just didn't open letters because I had this horrible attitude of I just, I guess I just did, I had a slight admin phobia. And Gemini knew that there'd be bills to pay. But at least once a beta sitcom, and Mike asked me to change your pay as you go, pay as you go gas metre, I don't have enough money to be like, I'm just gonna go to the supermarket I'll buy 200 pounds worth of gas, so I don't have to go every week to talk me up.

Unknown Speaker 18:39
So was this I mean, did this ever stress your worry or didn't worry at all it was just your way of normal working overdrafts loans, you know, people turn up knocking on your door wanting money, that sort of stuff that did you just think that was normal?

Unknown Speaker 18:52
Yeah, it didn't stress me in the way that it does now. So now the thought of being in debt makes me feel very edgy because I see being on top of my money is like ultimate freedom. Back then I guess I'd like resigned myself to this life of I had to go to work every day I had to work really hard work was my life. I didn't have I thought I earned money, so I didn't have to think about it. And I remember voicing that to people as well. That was my attitude. And it sounds to me like I guess I also thought it was crass to have to really think about money all the time and talk about it. So I just lived in denial even to myself.

Unknown Speaker 19:34
So I'm trying to work out if the if that stage because I know that you've not really written about this your your period in your 20s before and I know it's an area that does interest a number of people are listening to this. And I'm just trying to think was it. So we either were either spending it sounds to me like you had like what we call lifestyle creep. So you're spending rises to meet the income. It doesn't matter how much you earn, you'll never get ahead if you're always spending every penny right. So There's no structure, I'm trying to work out whether the spending was to fill a void or a need that you felt intrinsically or, or the lack of kind of thinking about the consequences or even thinking about a structure or even thinking about saving was because you associated you were trying to get away from something. So do you with me people have either tried to fill out or they're trying to get some reinforcement for themselves. I'm trying to work out what what you think was the primary driver because some of the listeners to my show may actually have similar situations themselves.

Unknown Speaker 20:33
I think there was a couple of things. One was that although I was earning more and more money,

Unknown Speaker 20:39
and I think many people have this, I was working for people who were earning a lot more than me. So and I worked very closely with those people. You know, we spent a lot of time abroad together where we'd be almost like living together in a hotel for a few weeks. And ally, and I worked weekends and I spend lots of evenings at work, so that these people became my life and the way they were spending money was, I guess it was quite attracted to me, you know, they would just drop hundreds of pounds on various items of clothing or they started holiday in certain places. So I every time I had a wage increase, I guess I was trying to keep up with these people who were slightly above me. So that was that that I never felt rich mainly because I was always looking, comparing myself to someone who was earning more, which is a death thing to do, but it's definitely it definitely happened. And, and then the other thing I lived in a very busy part of London, I worked in a very busy part of London. And I never stopped to consider just how there was there were so many opportunities to spend every single day, the amount of shops I passed. The you know, there'd always be someone to go for lunch with someone, you know, some I also had a very kind of, I guess you could call it FOMO where I didn't want to miss out on anything. Some, some weekends I'd go for brunch twice, and not really enjoy either of those branches because I was rushing on to the next one, but spending double the money.

Unknown Speaker 22:11
And that was for your need for social connection, your need for connection as a way to connect with people MTU to fit in, right, but also you thought that that was the thing that everyone did.

Unknown Speaker 22:23
Exactly. I thought that was the thing everyone did. And then if I had friends who didn't work in the same industry, and I was aware that not everyone. And as much as I did, I then felt a certain amount of guilt. And I guess I was always the person that I thought I had to be the person that bought the first round in the pub. And, and I, in a way I thought that's what I thought that's what my friends sent me before it would be seen that reflected back to my friends because that's not what they thought about. I thought I had to be this generous character. And that was intrinsic to how people saw me

Unknown Speaker 22:59
and that's the master Issue, isn't it so so there's we very rarely are who we should be. And therefore it makes it even harder to be who we are right? Because because we're living this, and it's not always done for disingenuous reasons it's this, we feel that we have to be a certain way because that's what they expect me to be. And I want perhaps in a way, you might even think that's making it easy for them. But actually, if we could all be known up front, we'd all probably say, actually, we don't want to go on three branches. And why do we need to buy all these clothes? Or why are we going to that, you know, it's kind of like, the Emperor's New Clothes, right?

Unknown Speaker 23:31
Totally. The moment I actually started talking about money and thinking about it, I realised how many rules i'd created for myself that did not exist did not matter to anyone else. And the relief that you get in any group of friends when you say, oh, should we dial down the pile of it or not, you know, like, Let's keep this evening cheap. There's generally a collective sigh of relief.

Unknown Speaker 23:54
And I love it when you you in your book you write all about things like stag dues Hindus people's way All these things that happen that just come with a price tag and an expectation that he puts. And if you're, I mean, some people do suffer from mental health issues, regardless of money, and this just exacerbates it, or they end up suffering mental health issues because of the this. There's external pressures, not just their own, but sternal pressures for them to spend their money.

Unknown Speaker 24:20
Total, I actually think that lockdown might be that this pandemic might end head instructors. I just can't picture that we'd go back to that point of Kayleigh spending again. Or, well, let's see.

Unknown Speaker 24:33
Well, I think it's like anything, it's it's probably the social media. I think you said it in your book, actually, where did this come from? And when did this I think it's if people see a curated version of happiness, and if they're not sure about what the role of what a good life is for them, and what really truly makes them happy between both experienced happiness and reflective happiness. So what happens in the moment versus when you sit back and think about it? That's a curated version of what how a game is no different from us. The early noughties or the mid naughties. And your friends and you thinking, this is how I've got to be versus people seeing that on Instagram or on Facebook or wherever and thinking, that's the definition of good.

Unknown Speaker 25:09
Totally.

Unknown Speaker 25:11
Well, I mean, I'm interested. So in the 20s, then your 20s, you were having these incredible pay rises. I mean, on any anyone's measure, they are amazing pay rises. You're working hard. You're playing hard. Just take us through as you so you've got, because you want to try and think now. So you were you've got to Was there any when was the next obstacle, the next

Unknown Speaker 25:35
turning point.

Unknown Speaker 25:36
So there was something that was happening throughout those years that I think lots of people will relate to. And I'm very embarrassed by this still. And that was that I thought I was too busy to truly care about anything other than the work I had to do. So I was too busy to think about how I was spending money. You know, I would do things like book holidays, I couldn't go on and just and I wouldn't sit there and think, oh, I'll change those flights and just be like, Oh, great, I'll just lose that money. And, and I think this busy attitude gets in the way of many people living the life they want to leave, they want to leave. So that was going on. And then the epiphany moment and this is happens to so many people very much a cliche is I had a kid and I suddenly realised that well I don't have a security for the future. I still have debt Yeah, I'm earning a six figure salary that something is not adding up Yeah, I need to change

Unknown Speaker 26:38
that's quite common. A lot of my you know, don't feel listened to any of the shows. But three or four people have said that was a there's always an epiphany. There's always a turning point, which makes people what I call become an adult, right? About so was it. How did you feel at that stage? was it was it? Was it a fear? was it was it just sort of thinking God, what was the emotion you were feeling when suddenly you were going to have a kid?

Unknown Speaker 27:06
Well, I had Well, I had my son and I still was spending ridiculously. And then I went back to work and the feeling that I had when I essentially I wanted to leave the job that I had. Yeah, I was trapped because I built this life that required a six figure salary. And I didn't want it got to a point where I couldn't go to work. I physically hated my job. And I was suddenly so embarrassed, I didn't have any thought I was working like they save money is freedom yet, I had a very quick realisation that this money had trapped me because I you know, had a rent that I was paying was very high and, and various other outgoings and so I suddenly had to take stock, stop spending money, because I wanted to change career and I know knew that was going to require taking a huge pay cut. And actually, it was one of those realisations that earning more money wasn't freedom. It was being able to survive on less would be freedom in my life.

Unknown Speaker 28:15
And I always say, you know, if you've got if you can afford the life that you want, then you're free. But if you're learning money to live a life that's not serving you, no matter what the level of income is, you're trapped. In fact, my new book was coming out later this year, I made the point that that money is never going to solve your freedom or security cravings. It just cannot I mean, yeah, beyond the basics, you know, beyond the basics of having enough you know, just the very basics of life stops you'd be miserable, but but he can't solve those deep seated emotional cravings can it

Unknown Speaker 28:48
totally Even now I am you know, I'm, I'm a freelancer and the pandemic has definitely affected my earnings. Like I've probably under a third this month than I did last month. But it's fine like I have I have savings now because I plan and I think about money, I think about how I spend. And I've also we've really rein things in in terms of our spending. So

Unknown Speaker 29:12
our costs are lower your lifestyle cost is not as high octane is what you're saying you have guys are hungry or a direct debit habit.

Unknown Speaker 29:19
So much lower, and I would never I don't have any debt. And I am very against it now. Because, you know, I'm in a privileged position that I can choose not to take it out, but even things I don't have a car on PCP or anything like that. And I was thinking I might, why am I feel secure? And it's obviously like, no one's feeling secure right now. But I don't know what it would take for me to feel secure. You know, I've got a few months. I've got what you need to have in the bank to supposedly feel safe like three months salary, and in like an easy access savings account. Why is that not making me feel secure? So you're right, I don't think any amount is what you would ever feel secure. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 30:01
levels, can't you?

Unknown Speaker 30:02
Yeah. And there's a difference between siege mentality, which is what is affecting I'd be doing loads of live events that are so I've never worked harder in the last five years and I haven't been last two months actually. But there's a difference between siege mentality we don't feel like you can even breathe financially and you where you've got a healthy concern. Of course things are difficult. You've got to be careful, but you don't have a high octane lifestyle compared to the old days. And you've got a bit of a buffer, is it perfect? Is it optimal? Who knows what the number is? But you're not you're not in a siege or you're not in a siege thing, which many people are in and when you're under siege, you make you make decisions based on fear. You make decisions based on on knee jerk primaeval reactions and you're not thinking rationally I bet you can't even make decision so so let's just go back then. So you had your your son and what changes did you make? I mean, how did you approach because don't don't forget if you've been leaving on open envelopes with a guy Bill and having three ordering, you know three branches and you're going going on booking holidays you don't go on, how do you go from that to this? Did you go cold turkey? Or did you do it gradually? Did you have a plan? Did you go?

Unknown Speaker 31:13
No, I, it was, quite literally overnight, it was just a moment of realisation that I need to get myself into a place where I can choose the work I do rather than having. You know, I had an I was partner in an ad agency. So it was a very stressful job that you had to be fully committed to be able to do. And I knew I was no longer that person and couldn't do it. something had changed during my maternity leave my perspective on life. So quite literally overnight. I just sat down and thought, right, I'm just going to stop spending. And there was actually almost that same sense of relief that I had. When I first read the first pay packet early on of just, I can take control of this. And I said They saw all my habits for how I'm still feel quite a lot of shame of how I treated money then, because I think it was very disrespectful to not just myself but also my family and the people around me that I could have helped. And see I just cut down on all spending. And it's, you know, all the obvious things stopped going out for dinner with friends stopped buying coffees every day stopped buying clothes. It's when I actually it's when I saw my habits, they kind of came into focus and I realised that I rarely passed a clothing shop without just walking into it. I wasn't buying things I actually liked or wanted. I was just buying them because I was bored or could so I had an awful lot of stuff. I didn't have any like emotional connection to it.

Unknown Speaker 32:51
So you reacting or you will learn a learned behaviour or habit eventually just become ingrained in you that was a cue craving rewald down. So I'm interested though, about this this You said it was very disrespectful. You felt shame that's a very powerful powerful emotion is one of the things that stops people really talking about money because one of the things I've noticed and it's directly relevant because I want to now just drill into this bit with you. In all of the webcasts I've been doing both through all different organisations, but the reality is we've Coronavirus or any pandemic that suddenly exposes the weaknesses that were there before right so people can't go two or three months without wages coming in. And and don't get me wrong. I'm not judging anyone because we're all at different stages. You might have just bought a house you may have just stopped work, it could be all sorts of reasons why you haven't got it and you're not optimal. And you've got a high octane lifestyle, but it exposes our past decisions that in retrospect, we realise that we we feel silly about and when we feel silly, or we feel shame, or we feel that regret is a such a powerful emotion and it really, really attacks the fabric of who We are so so I'm interested at that stage you you went cold turkey now I think that's something that all the experts suggest that you don't do. So what made you decide because it may not be right for everyone going completely cold turkey, but if I look to your bank statement then just before you had the Epiphany

Unknown Speaker 34:18
and we sat down together and looked at it, um

Unknown Speaker 34:22
what would have what would have come out from that? What would it have been showing? Really? Just

Unknown Speaker 34:28
you would have gone Why did you eat in a proper restaurant for lunch every day? And, and it all came from having, like I said, I had a creative partner and we work together, which meant that we spent a lot of our working days in cafes and restaurants. And that costs a lot of money to sit in a restaurant all day. And see what a question that you probably would have said, How Why are your rounds in the pub 45 pounds rather than 15 pounds, because this other realisation that happened when I went cold turkey was I kind of carry on living the life I was living and just spend less, I just didn't need to. And, for instance, when I went out for dinner, I'd be embarrassing, not really ordering that much. I thought to sit in a restaurant, you had to fill your table with food. And you don't, you can just order, you know, the cheap pasta dish there was this is so obvious. I'm talking about, you know, I will use the word idiot to how I was with money then. And that's also this judgement that I'm throwing at myself, I guess. It's because I now see money as a very, very valuable resource. And I also I'm very aware of the inequalities and that that's why I feel like I wasted it. But at the same time, and this is a guess these two things can exist simultaneously, but they are in opposition. I also don't want anyone else to feel judgement or shame around about money because it is so easy. We're not taught how to spend money. There's no consistency of financial education across the US. at any level in schools, and, and money is very emotional. And also there's a taboo around talking about it. So therefore we can never really, we often learn about ourselves in conversation. And you can't do that with money. So lots of people are spending, haphazardly getting themselves into trouble. And it isn't their fault. They just don't know any better. So we shouldn't judge ourselves so much. But the actual moment of judgement that I did have was very helpful, because it made me readdress many things. And my life has been better since I started budgeting.

Unknown Speaker 36:32
To what extent did your job define or as a key part of your identity and self worth and, and sort of purpose and fulfilment? In other words, the as you earn more money, regardless of what you were doing with it, and where you were directing it, because that was your human capital, right? human capital is your ability to earn money, and your financial capital is your ability to keep hold of it. Okay. So, so I'm just trying to think To what extent the work was such a part of your identity and therefore sort of almost being Coming in, regardless of keeping it was constantly validating your self esteem.

Unknown Speaker 37:05
Oh, it was completely part of my identity. I mean, this is really embarrassing. But while I knew I wanted to leave and quit as a test to myself, I removed my job title from my Instagram bio, to see how it would feel to not be presenting myself to the world with that job title. But I read about that job title. It wasn't even that prestigious. But it it meant a lot to me. There was a there was a big decoupling that I had to do from that job.

Unknown Speaker 37:36
So the identity of the job was all about how you felt others felt about you. The spending was to a large extent kind of what you expected both a learned habit that just crept up on you but also how you thought other people thought that you should be spending and and you just develop these habits and because the income had been always going up, your spending have been going up but You and you got you off the hook as it were. So the novel, it's the, the no hiding place. So when you when there's no other left to hide, we stop hiding, right? You came out of the cupboard as it were, you came out of the hidey hole. When, when the reality was that was someone else you had to actually take some responsibility for.

Unknown Speaker 38:17
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 38:19
But it was actually, you know, it wasn't just the being a parent and thinking about their future, which is I love my son. I think it was more selfish than that. I wanted to start writing and writing doesn't pay as much money as advertising. And I was over working for brands and I also I follow the blinkers have been lifted. And I felt suddenly quite morally opposed to the job that I've been doing been doing.

Unknown Speaker 38:46
I see so so the the catalyst was you having a child or better, but actually, when we look at the deep motivation, a real thing that pushed you was the sense that you need to move on and do something that really met an inner need for you, not just your bank account. But also your, you know, your need for meaning and purpose. Right?

Unknown Speaker 39:04
Exactly. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 39:05
That cliche instead.

Unknown Speaker 39:08
Yeah, that's interesting. I just want to touch on this and we don't need to go into through your own situation, but but you do touch on the whole role of alcohol, drugs in addiction, you know, you don't talk about addiction as such, but you talk about alcohol, drugs, and gambling. And I touch on these in my new book under the whole thing of filling the void, right? So we got this big hole that we're trying to fill. And you actually are the one of the few people that one who's raised that because I say the one of the chapters in my book is about, I could never understand when I was doing pro bono work people why someone were earning good money, and I couldn't see necessarily I couldn't work out where this money was going. And it was often on as you say, they didn't necessarily think they were an addict or an alcoholic or had a problem with gambling, but it was this ongoing indulgence of hedonism. Is that true, isn't it and so, there's Two things there. One is the acknowledging it. Okay, that. Secondly, you talk about it in the sensor without being judgmental. You talk about the sense of owning up to it and making a budget for it. And I would call it under the three years that I knew, right? And it may, we may have a view about whether it's actually lasting fun, or if it's any good for you, or whether it actually does do anybody, let's assume that he's part of someone's life and they'd like to have a wacky, you know, like a cigarette or, or they want to have some weed or they do a line or something or whatever it is, but they feel they've got it under control, and it's part of their life. You You, you talk about the need to just accept it.

Unknown Speaker 40:35
Think about it. I make an allowance for it.

Unknown Speaker 40:38
Well, yeah, exactly that in a nutshell, that is what I think so. When I realised I used to spend so much money on nights out, I mean, horrific amounts of money could pop into the cashpoint getting five Ubers across town, you know, going into barriers off licences to buy different sets of alcohol for different parties. Going to go into The next one doing that again. And that you know that those nights out, eat into your bank account. And I guess I realised that if you're going to budget and you're if you're budgeting and the rest of your life, and you're not budgeting for your Saturday, Friday and Saturday nights out, and you spend a lot of money on them, it's pointless budgeting the rest of the week. So just kind of accept that when you're hung over, you spend 30 pounds on delivery. And if you acknowledge that to yourself, then you can you can budget for that. And before, you know, as long as like say as long as it is part of your life, and you're happy to do that, and that's then yes, let's acknowledge how much it costs.

Unknown Speaker 41:42
I did. I did I did life and I talked about smart spending as my big thing right so all my whole world is built around smart certainty. That's how I got out of debt in my 20s. But you do make you laugh because I talked about speed with the things that you have to buy try and buy smart and you interviewed a drug dealer who said they people were better off buying three packets rather than one because That'd be cheaper for them. And

Unknown Speaker 42:03
I did have to laugh out loud but I was reading I thought I've never ever read this in a book about money. It is. It's just

Unknown Speaker 42:10
me, which I thought was so interesting. He's he was like, ultimately, they are paying me a fee to hold their drugs.

Unknown Speaker 42:20
Yes.

Unknown Speaker 42:21
How it works out. Oh, I've never thought about it like that. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 42:24
yeah. So I just like get people in an essence of how different your book is because there's so many little anecdotes like that that will make you either laugh out loud smile or wins. So, so tell us now you went through cold turkey. And then your book you talk about taking the steps that you sort of tried to sort yourself out there. Tell us about just how you felt. Once you've got rid of the debt or rather what was the first what was the motivation because you started on the debts First of all, did you all the old the expensive that you had to get out of just just just briefly tell us about that process because took about a year and a half? Admit.

Unknown Speaker 43:01
Yeah. And I just started putting money aside to pay it off. And I do the credit cards first. I think people often talk about that the overdraft is the hardest bit pay off and that I felt saying that was the last thing that went for me. It felt very easy to live in my overdraft I didn't see a problem with it just kind of was there. Even when my wages went in, you know, they just about touch the site. It was probably one day a month when I was in credit in my bank account. And but the feeling of relief of paying off credit cards is not to be underestimated. I mean, I know so many people live in perpetual debt. And yeah, it makes me really sad because that is such a burden. Having debt it really does restrict your movements in life and what you can do, and it felt I remember it seeming as good to pay off bits of my credit card. As he had previously done to buy things in shops, it was like the the endorphins, it was the same endorphin hit.

Unknown Speaker 44:09
It's interesting is when I, I got completely debt free, right you I'm a complete anti debt. Even I work part time for a company that is does lend money to people through payroll deduction, but that's to help get out of debt into savings and so on. But I'm passionately anti debt and I can remember my wife saying to me once all you You seem different, you think different now, Jason? And I don't I don't think I'd communicate to you. She knew the plan I put together to change things. And I just said us because we've got any debt.

Unknown Speaker 44:39
And

Unknown Speaker 44:40
how can that make you different? How can that make you feel, you know, different from before you still got the same skills, you're still the same person but it's almost like you the weight of your past. poor decisions in a way is hanging is beat. You'll be judged every month. You've got to make that payment or deal with correspondence, haven't you? It's almost like it's rubbing your nose in it.

Unknown Speaker 45:01
Yeah, and I also just hate how much money they make from it. I hate that it makes rich, you know, really rich companies richer. I there's a little bit sticking it to the man, I think if you can stay debt free, I really hope that when we come out of this pandemic, and everyone's talking about a recession, and you might be able to educate me on this, Jason actually, but I know that they say recession, they say this with awareness that recessions can hit the course people were. And that's not what I want. But I also think that our consumption and spending has been so out of control and the reliance on debt that so many people have and the effect that that has on people's mental health. Surely we do need a reset in some way. And Could this be fear?

Unknown Speaker 45:49
Well, you're absolutely right. My wife and I talk about this quite a lot is, you know, we've lived the same house for 22 years, we've got very, I mean, your lovely lifestyle, but we're very modest people. But my, I'm always very pains not to judge anyone else's decisions or where they are, if that's working for them. But we both felt that things. And Brian May said it brilliantly on a podcast the other day, Brian May, you know, the guitarist of Queen. And he said, he said, we just can't carry on as we are the idea of all this drop of a hat going abroad on an aeroplane, or being cheap by Joe and things. Just just in other words, not mindful. So there's no one's to say you can't have fun. There's no say you can't occasionally have a bit of extravagance. But there was almost a kind of the panic was sort of crying out really for people to be and we've seen that people who have a more intrinsic motivation, you know, they're more values driven. They're more connected with nature, the more they think about things, the more they're fought for. They have higher financial well being at any level of income. I mean, I'm assuming you'll be on subsistence, the people who have very extrinsic motivation, so very materialism, very Status drift, very consumptive, very, very spending orientated, they have tend to have lower financial well being. And I think you're right, the pandemic is almost like a kind of a control. You know, on the computers years ago, they used to sort of get frozen. And you'd have to do that control or delete to stop. Because nothing worked either that will turn the attorney on and off button. Well, I don't think we're doing the turning the on and off button on, I think we are doing a Ctrl Alt Delete, to get the factory settings back. And it's down to us individually for our daily actions. Because consumerism and materialism is designed to keep you poor. It's designed when I say poor, poor of choice, poor of options, poor flexibility. I mean, you've got to follow your passion to do a job that pays you a lot less than advertising. I would I would actually say whatever you're earning, you're earning it whereas before I think you will be given it and there was a potential because a friend of mine, ex girlfriend is here. Well, it was just schooled me for six years he, he's in advertising. And I've always felt there's a bit of a kind of conundrum with him when I speak to him about things because I've always tried to try to be doing the thoughtful thing and thinking, where does this go? Whereas he's, he's in that kind of world of having to convince people that they're not whole, that somehow they will life is missing something and just like love Island, we've all got to look like them and be like them and act like them? Well, no, it's this. It's this. It's difficult for people to do the right thing with the world telling them that they're somehow inadequate. So I think, I think just to say, it's an opinion, I think we're on a control, alt delete, it's an opportunity notwithstanding the terrible human suffering and loss that's there. Of course,

Unknown Speaker 48:41
of course, of course. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 48:42
But put that to one side. I think when the history books are written, they'll say this was the inflection point when you know who wants to go on holiday abroad. And when you think that what the pandemic has done is he's made us think of it doesn't mean to say we can't do any of this. So I think I'm with you on that. I think it's a it's a, it's an inflection point. It's a turning point which way we go, who knows, but just just bring us up to sort of date now. And now that you're debt free, and you've got a bit of savings. I know you're a freelancer, you write for lots of different things. And I know from my own commissions, I do that they've, a lot of organisations have to rein in spending. But this happened in 2009. So it's nothing new. You know, I'm sure things will bounce back eventually. But how do you the question, I really want to sort of just sort of bring the show to an end before we refractions is, if you look back to who you were 15 years ago, right? You can look back you're not the same person now that you were then are you in any way shape or form? I don't just mean you're older, but I mean, mentally emotionally. So my question to you is, Can you can you envisage, we find it difficult to look forward? Could you envisage how you might become as a person and the role of money in the relationship you have with money 15 years hence.

Unknown Speaker 49:58
Interesting.

Unknown Speaker 50:03
By, I think my priorities of what I spend on will definitely change. I. So I left London, I moved out of London eight months ago, and I'd live there for 18 years. And that was another moment for me of change reconfiguring my spending because when you step away from the shops in London, you don't spend as much. And actually, I now live in Lisbon. I remember over Christmas going back and visiting and I was popping back quite a lot as well, doing far too many short haul flights. But go back and I wrote Christmas time there was like all these Christmas versions of biscuits in the shops and lots and lots of festive stuff to buy. And we didn't have that here in Lisbon, and it actually looked quite mad this the I could see basically that companies were creating opportunities to sell as more products like product that we probably already had. It was just You know, festive versions of Hellman's mayonnaise kind of thing. And it Yeah, look mark. So there's that thing of I definitely strip strip that my daily spending. And I kind of hope to continue to do that I hope to be a bit more self sustaining, whether that's growing my own food, or Yeah, I hope that's where it goes or just not needing a spending hit as often. I also hope we start we talk about money much more and I continue to have money conversations my son he's only four but I'd like to think that education of younger people we can start to fix

Unknown Speaker 51:42
and that was a that's an interesting thing is that there's there's research that I've seen shows that children learn by example. And they learn through the conversations and the words that we use. So just the only thing I would suggest just just, you know, thoughts here for anyone listening is if you Talk about money in a positive light. And be very mindful of how you speak about money. You try to be honest with children, young people about the role of money, so you need to worry about it because it's important, but not so much that it overwhelms you. You know, in other words, it's a it's a polite concern as opposed to a kind of catastrophe situation. And the other thing is look for opportunities for them to actually take some control of their own money, whether it's their piggy bank, whether it's raising money for something whether it's pound for pound matching, whether it's opening an account, an app, whatever it is, but but do it in a way where it's not obsessive, but it just becomes hygienic too. we brush our teeth, we wash our hands we do this we do that oh, by the way, we do this about money.

Unknown Speaker 52:39
Yeah, I think when I think about and you started the podcast with this, but earliest money memories, if money was discussed, it was because my family was stressed about it. And now I try to have casual money conversations, I call them so whether that's me and my partner, we're both freelance, we check in with each other. We don't actually have joint bank accounts and but we do Check in with each other very regularly to say how are you familiar this week? What invoices Have you that have paid? And where are we? What do we need to spend money on? And so money is just part of our daily patter in conversation rather than these big stressful conversations at the end of the month.

Unknown Speaker 53:15
It's a dialogue. It's a money dialogue. I diatribe or a big complaint. Yeah, yeah. Good. Well, Alex, just before you go, but do you want to share any of my what I called your top tips or what you know, now that you wish you'd known or just something sort of to leave us on a big Hi.

Unknown Speaker 53:33
Um, I guess up until much judgement and embarrassment a lot, and I really don't want people to feel that about money, where are they however much they earn, or however much debt they have? It was too much shame around money and money problems, feel too isolating, and then we're in this double isolation. And so I would say that if you're feeling that way, know that loads of other people feel the same. And actually, I think what I love about Instagram at the moment is how many people are on there. Talking about their real money issues. People like my frugal. Yeah. And lots of debt instagramers. So I guess that would be my thing is that you're not alone and seek out other people are in the same situation because often getting advice from people, peers that have living this similar life to you is much more valuable than getting advice from an expert.

Unknown Speaker 54:22
Well, Alex holder,

Unknown Speaker 54:25
writer extraordinaire, the book is called Open up the power of talking about money very, very highly recommended. I've read it twice, I'm going to make a few things I'm going to read quote, quote you want in my book, which I think a gym so so your, your, your reaches extending to the three copies, I'm going to sell up mine. And it's been a pleasure talking to you. You've been very open and honest and generous with your time very grateful. And, you know, good luck with the writing and everything you're doing. Thank you, Jason.

Unknown Speaker 55:01
Thanks for listening to true money stories with me, Jason Butler. If you'd like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai