49. Mick McAteer Levels the Money Playing Field

Listen to this real Money Stories episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Gaana, Stitcher or Podbean by clicking the links and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

In this episode, I speak to Mick McAteer, founder and co-Director of The Financial Inclusion Centre, a UK not-for-profit policy and research group dedicated to promoting financial markets that work for society.

Growing up in the tough climate of Northern Ireland’s Civil Rights Movement, Mick had a strong sense for equality instilled in him from a young age. Working alongside his father selling produce door-to-door was not only hard work, but dangerous work too.

Moving to London in the mid-80s, Mick worked to make ends meet working in a junior position in risk analysis. Spurred on by a growing family, he strove to achieve a comfortable but modest lifestyle.

A social pioneer and champion of justice, Mick’s story makes a great listen. Check out www.inclusioncentre.org.uk.

Episode Transcript

Jason Butler 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Real Money Stories podcast. I'm Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out and your money journey, or well down the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more. Real Money Stories is sponsored by Vanguard, bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. And remember, the value of investments can go down, as well as up and you may get back less than you invested. Hello there, Jason Butler here. Before we get into the show, I just wanted to let you know about my latest money blog over on Jason hyphen butler.com is called millionaire mindset. Now we talk about building wealth. But what do you actually have to do to achieve that? Well, I walk you through the steps that people who are just like you have gone through to build their first million. So go over to Jason hyphen, butler.com. And read millionaire mindset. It could be the most profitable thing you do this week. Now let's get on with the show.

Hello, and thanks for joining me on another episode of Real Money Stories, the podcast where we talk to people from a wide range of backgrounds about their money journey, their money, beliefs, and their money experiences. I'm your host, Jason Butler. And today I'm joined by a real character, someone I've wanted to get on the show for a while. And I finally convinced him to come on. And that's Mr. Mick McAteer. And hello Mick.

Mick McAteer 1:48
Oh, Jason. Yeah. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure being one.

Jason Butler 1:52
No, that's good. Thank you. Well, I'm, I've been following you for a long time. And you are someone I would say who has a very strong social conscience. It's fair to say, isn't it? But before we go into your backstory, and kind of your highs and lows and or your journey for your life, I just wanted you to tell people what you currently do. Now, what's your main focus of activity?

Mick McAteer 2:13
Yeah, sure. I mean, I wear several hats, as you probably know,

Jason Butler 2:19
which one was the biggest that was?

Mick McAteer 2:22
Well, they all fit inside each other like a Russian doll, you know, but it's um, so my main job is a co director of the financial inclusion center. And we campaign for financial markets to work for everyone, not just the sort of the, the better off households. But I'm also Chair of the nonprofit organization registry trust. And that operates the the register of judgments and fines and so on, on behalf of the Minister of Ministry of Justice, and I'm chair of an anti poverty charity, called xante. Can we provide free legal advice to people who are being affected, or being sanctioned by the Department for Work and Pensions? And I'm also our Deputy Chair of the Northern Ireland consumer console, which as you can imagine, looks after the interests of consumers in Northern Ireland. So those are those are the main things that I do. Yeah.

Jason Butler 3:19
Yeah. So it's, it's basically my understanding is always but what you've been involved in is just trying to make sure there's fairness for everyone in society, but particularly more vulnerable or less well served or less well represented groups. Is that fair to say?

Mick McAteer 3:34
That's absolutely right. Jason. you know I've campaigned for all consumers human hasn't just been the most vulnerable. But we do have a focus on, as you say, the most vulnerable,

Jason Butler 3:46
yeah, for everyone. But obviously, that that does help people who are more vulnerable, who are less stable or got the inclination to sell to them.

Mick McAteer 3:56
You're absolutely right. It's a question of fairness. You're both. We make the point really, that over the years, what we've seen as a Canada, almost like a sort of a dig into creating of the rights that people have in society. Because when I was when I when I first started as a campaigner, I was taught by legendary people like Michael Young, who, you know, who set up which, which magazine he set up the Open University, he wrote, he wrote the Labour Party Manifesto. The manifesto was absolutely right, you know, and Sheila McKechnie, you know, he he was a legendary campaigner. But they they always told us that the fundamental principle of social justice is that the the more vulnerable you are, the less powerful you are, the more rights and protections you should have in society, but I'm afraid that principle has been kind of inverted over the years, you know, that we live in a very consumer, a society and kind of in a consumer society, it's the is the better off you know, as the more confident, more capable consumers should get a better deal at the expense of those who do not know. So I think I've noticed over the years, there has been a sort of almost like an inversion, that social justice principle and an aggregate degradation of the rights given to the most vulnerable.

Jason Butler 5:14
And, and we will get into in a minute, but I just wanted to touch this view, because I, you know, I know you're passionate about this, but as well as the vulnerable groups in society, to what extent do you think less vulnerable people and I call it you know, the vast majority of people who have, whose financial well being, and their general happiness has been either held back or faulted or damaged by a big focus on consumerism, materialism consumption, day, all of that kind of, you can have the goods life as opposed to the good life, you know, that kind of principle without us being too sanctimonious about what a good life is, right? Yeah,

Mick McAteer 5:54
yeah, I can't say the spread. It's a very interesting point, you know, and, you know, maybe I have a reputation of being on this, let's say, on the left, shall we, you know, I, you know, and people always think, guy, I only care about vulnerable, consumers only care about state intervention and so on. But I always try to make the point that, you know, throughout history, you know, particularly after the Second World War period, you want to look at other other countries, like Scandinavia, or the Scandinavian countries, you know, and Germany and, and even France to a certain degree, what you find is that, you know, if you have a, if you have the state providing a really strong foundation, so people can feel secure in their lives, that actually allows people to make better choices about the future, that allows them to take risks, actually, when it comes to jobs, self employment, innovation, you know, it's interesting that those companies with the stronger state support, I've actually got a better track record when it comes to research and development, innovation, patents, startup businesses, you know, self employment, sustainable self employment, and so on, then the sort of the Anglo Saxon companies, which, over the years have started to sort of fool people to the, to the wolves, or throwing people in the deep end when it comes to losing your, your job, you know, so I compliment, I come from the philosophy that says, Well, what the state can provide that good safety net, or that good foundation actually helps people take bigger risks and help us plan for the future. And it helps them make them confident choices, you know, so I think, you know, the stock that we advocate for, isn't there just to sort of provide support for the most vulnerable, it's there to provide a real platform for everybody. Really?

Jason Butler 7:40
Yeah. So, I mean, if we just go back now, you're, you're proud. Northern Ireland. Company. Creation, right. Is that right? You? Most of you are born in

Mick McAteer 7:55
Northern Ireland. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. You're right. It's technically it's still problems. A bolster?

Jason Butler 8:01
Yeah, I was what's its called?

Mick McAteer 8:04
Northern Ireland's Official title. Yeah,

Jason Butler 8:06
yeah. Okay. So, tell me about growing up, when you were young, and the sort of the whole family situation in terms of its, you know, money, lifestyle, you know, work, you know, what was going on as you were a young child.

Mick McAteer 8:21
Very interesting. I'm sure your listeners may have heard yesterday, but the death of John Hume? Yes. You know, the, the, the, the wonderful politician who really did with others you know, sort of help build the peace in Northern Ireland after a very long, bitter conflict. You both might remember, john, really, from even before that, before the peace process, you know, when, during the Civil Rights Movement, you know, I keep reminding people really that

when I when I was young, I think I might have my first civil rights box with my mother when I was six years of age, you don't

Jason Butler 9:06
install them young, civil rights, six, you're training, haven't you?

Mick McAteer 9:14
This was surprisingly easy to do. But um, you know, I keep reminding people, you know, that it's, it's, it was within living memory within the United Kingdom, that people could my parents couldn't vote.

They couldn't get a bank account. They couldn't borrow money from any of the banks. And they couldn't get affordable housing. All because of who they were, who they were, not because of their current or whatever, but they literally were disenfranchised. Couldn't get a bank official bank account and as they get affordable housing, just because of who they who they were, you know, so, certainly in the early days, we had a very, very, very poor upbringing. You know, there's no single room of combination. A lot, you know, in the fall of adopting aliens, like a lot of people do a lot of man did in those days, you know, made a bit of money, man, when it was late No, later on, we did manage to buy, you know, incredibly cheap post. I think it was sort of a three or 400 quid or something, you know, he tells us, you know, but that was not until I think maybe I was like, 13 or 14, you know, but before that, we lived on a one of the biggest console estates and availability sales, you know, in Britain and Ireland, you know, and it was so far it was, you know, we weren't living on the street, you know, but it was it was, it was a very, very rough upbringing. In the early days. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Butler 10:43
And do you remember what sort of conversations can you remember about kind of money and bills and stuff when you were young, I mean, was it literally your mom and dad had to work out literally, to lost power what they had, or, to me some money just turned up from nowhere?

Mick McAteer 10:59
Well, I'm gonna see, you know, someone after not for a number of years before came back. And he actually got a job, you know, which was really unusual in, in dairy. And he worked for the DuPont factory on this big chemical factory. And DuPont had a had a very, very positive attitude towards, you know, equality, I suppose amongst arm, you know, amongst the different communities in Northern Ireland do and they. And I was also I remember learning probably the first lesson about how powerful money can be because, you know, it was the big, it was the big institutional pension funds in America basically turned around and said, two big American American companies that had places in Ireland, they said, If you unless you actually start treating people fairly, we will pour money for me, you know, something that was actually the idea sort of, you know, ESG, and an institutional shareholder activism isn't new, you know, it was actually been used back in the days when, during the Civil Rights Movement, as well. So, um, so the DuPont company, really did sort of, you know, really did open its doors to Catholics, you know, because the, the level of unemployment amongst Catholic, the Catholic population was just unbelievable. You love it, I totally, you know, I'm not sure anybody here in the Great Britain can fully grasp the level of unemployment that we were that we grew up with, you know, it really was on a different on a different scale. So, yes, so they had to really, we had to, we had to sort of look after the money very carefully. And I think another another another thing that inspired me was, it was the idea of self help as well, because I'm sure you'll notice, and but I'm in England and Wales, for example, only one or 2% of people are members of credit unions. Whereas back home, half, half of the Catholic households belong to the credit union, you know, and that started for a very simple reason. And john himself was actually one of the instigators of this movement. He realized that Catholics couldn't get up, as I say, I couldn't get a bank account, they certainly were able to borrow money from any of the established banks, you know, so the community themselves, set up their own man lending institutions, your credit union jawaan. And they became incredibly successful what those credit unions were very much tied up with the the idea of self help, but also civil rights, you know, and that's why I don't mean to join him anyways, it you know, is known for the peace process, but, you know, he really, really did play a massive role as well. And in financial inclusion, you're by bringing by really selling up and expanding the credit union movement in the most deprived communities of dairy.

Jason Butler 14:08
And that's right, this principle of helping you help yourself is something that I try and foods for all my content if I got a new book coming out later in the year called the money miracle, and actually it abuses it sort of pulls apart a lot of the myths that people need telling. People kind of know what they need to do. It's just human nature is such that if you grow up with poverty, or you curl up with Ron telling you you're useless or, or the circumstances especially can't even breathe, you know, you've got money to get food on the table. It's difficult to get out of that to get ahead, but you can. And as you say, the credit unions have done more than any other organization. They've been around for 100 odd years. They're there's such an unsung hero. Some of them are constricted in terms of how much activity they can do. But you're absolutely right. That self help message has with credit unions has been a big thing in Northern Ireland. So yeah. So

Mick McAteer 14:58
as you I would say just as an interesting point to say they really have struggled over here. And they're doing pretty well in Scotland, actually. But again, that's because they tend to do well, amongst the sort of the, you know, the Irish communities, and Glasgow and but

Jason Butler 15:17
acceptance of them is

Mick McAteer 15:19
a recognition on the cultural or on understanding of a genome. So, absolutely. And the ones that do well, in England and Wales, ironically, are things like, you know, the black cab, the big black cabs, you know, the London black cabs credit union, yeah, the British Airways

Jason Butler 15:36
pilot seems to be when they're associated with an affinity or a cultural group, or sort of a community type community. And I think that's, but to what extent do you think we are thinking about when you were growing up as a teenager, you were all in the same boat, right? So it wasn't a case of like, you stood out or you felt different? It just you're all in the same boat, but there was this kind of economic sort of apartheid, if I can use that term, you know, without getting too emotive. And it was what it was. So how did you? How did you stay optimistic? And how did you pull yourself forward and help yourself? Help yourself?

Mick McAteer 16:12
Yeah, that's interesting. Um, oh, that's a really, really good question. Actually. Um, I mean, I did this little sort of a little sound a bit strange. But, uh, but I've always thought of, I've always thought of money, not as sort of a personal thing, but more as an as a, as a community thing, you know, so. So the whole idea of money as a force in society, rather than just a sort of, thing for personal use, I think has always been there, in the communities that I pretty open, you know, so I think we were kind of imbued with that wider sense of the power of money and the power of resources and so on. But, um, but I would say, look, you know, I know that there's a sonic a little cliche here, but in those communities, with the worst of the, at the worst of the trouble, Jim, there really was a genuine sense of community, you know, and I think that really helped us a lot. You know, alongside sort of the self help thing, we had a tremendous belief in education, as well, you know, that's, that has always been something that has been almost a holy thing, when it comes to the sort of reverence that education is held with, amongst parts of the Catholic community, at that time was, it was really something to behold, you know, because it was seen, it wasn't seen as a sort of a, necessarily as a way of bettering yourself. But also seeing that there was always a, there was a sacred duty to be, to be as educated as he possibly could, and to, not to waste any intelligence that he had, you know, so that's it, it's a combination of factors really, chasing, you know, the sort of the, sort of the recognition of the third part of a bigger thing, really, in the, in terms of civil rights, the strong community bonds that we had, and the belief in the belief in education, even though a lot of that education, you know, turned out to be a bit of a method in a sense that, you know, the, you know, the Catholic hierarchy, where, you know, just as snobby and as, as whatever is the establishment community, but nevertheless, the communities themselves really did have this sense of belief, and faith in education. So I think that's the thing that kept us going more than anything else, really, you know.

Jason Butler 18:37
So as a young man then he was he didn't, he was tough at home, and you couldn't ask your parents for stuff. Did you? Did you? What did you do after you left school? Did you go to college? uni? I mean, what did you had

Mick McAteer 18:50
to work? I worked with the Father for a while because he got made redundant. After a long time, at GE Pantone, he was also always a very active manual. And he, he, he bought himself. He bought himself a van. And we started to sell fruit and vegetables door to door basically, just going around

Jason Butler 19:14
Northern Ireland or in in Yeah, sorry,

Mick McAteer 19:16
back and back in Derry. Yeah, you're just going around

knocking on doors and asking people that they want to buy potatoes and vegetables and things, you know,

Jason Butler 19:26
was that hard work, getting business incredibly

Mick McAteer 19:28
hard. It was incredibly hard working on very hard work and very dangerous work as well. Because quite often, you know, in those days, you know, during the bombing campaigns, anybody who had a lot of arms was an obvious target for hijackings, you know, because, you know, the IRA or whatever needed, needed a vehicle to transport the bones, you know, and so they always went after people who had vans, you know, I tried to stop my father several times, you know, but he was so pigheaded. He just refused to give him you know, I wanted some more time, I'll tell you some very, very funny stories about that, you know, but, um, but eventually, eventually it got too much, you know, and he was, you know, it was driven out of business Really? By that, you know, so

Jason Butler 20:26
he was gonna say, what did you learn about yourself going? I mean, that sounds that I mean, how many people would that it's just unbelievable when you think about it? I mean, what did you learn as a young man about that? What can we do dad in a very stressful situation? You weren't making much money? You there was peril every day? I mean, what What impact did that have on you?

Mick McAteer 20:45
Oh, no, I think it just learned not to be afraid, really told you that we afraid, you know, not to give in? No.

You know, sometimes you got to stand up for yourself. Even if it's even if it hurts you some some things are more important. You know.

Jason Butler 21:04
So you developed a sort of thick skin resilience that kind of, you know, can do I suppose? Oh,

Mick McAteer 21:12
yeah. You know, I don't think it is I think it's all that Jason. You know, as I say the green only followed him on a million it's still a relatively young man when he was major don't chill, and I don't think he wanted to sit back and not do anything, you know. But we are talking about times when my sister lives in a little lives in a big housing estate. And, and I think when I when I left for referendums, I think, out of 100 houses, and the street where my sister lives, I think there was only one mom, he had a full time job for the whole lot. And that whole street, you know, so with just the normal level of unemployment, we're talking about, you know, just because of me, because we you know, there was the recession that the UK was hit by, in the 80s. We had the recession plus being living in Northern Ireland, plus the violence all happening at the same time. It also surprisingly had, you know, you know, kind of a triple whammy effect.

Jason Butler 22:19
So, when you came to

Mick McAteer 22:22
so he are no, no, he just, he just says lopping off I've got a few quid though from read ons and not going to sit around and do often he would do something that's easy, not easy, but sort of been required on a training, you know, because he wasn't, there wasn't a skilled manual. But he was a very determined man. So yeah, so he just Yeah, see, bought a bomb on a lot of vegetables and potatoes and tried to turn in profit from it.

Jason Butler 22:54
So after that business kind of didn't really work. And there's no shame in it not working because your dad sounds like he is a top guy trying to have a go and trying to live in. You came to the UK. Yeah. What did you What did you turn your hand to? Because I mean, obviously fruit vegetable delivering is one thing we didn't have our card. Oh, then so I'm sure there weren't lots of opportunities to bring that business model over. You were about 30 years too early, but

Mick McAteer 23:19
that's true, actually.

Jason Butler 23:20
So what did you What did you do?

Mick McAteer 23:23
Well, it's funny to say that because because we before actually later on after, after he sold the business with real pretenders offering companies a deal where he was called to go to the supermarkets and around around Darien actually offered to deliver goods delivered goods and vegetables to people's houses. You know, it's sort of like that, but they, but they didn't they didn't get it, you know, they wouldn't take the idea, you know, but so he was ahead of his time, actually, you know, but um, so well, so I came to I came to London between 85 or something 35 years ago. lost me accent Of course, you know,

Jason Butler 24:05
lost your- to your countrymen. Certainly not to me, I can hear

Mick McAteer 24:11
I'm only teasing you

on so I came and I did a demo a lot of Aries man did really well work with the link sites. You know, we used to stand on the corner of Cricklewood Broadway and to tell the road are awesome Kilburn high road, we just wait for a ganger to come along and pick pick us up and we'll be taken off to just knock things down. You're all in London, you know. So that was that was that was that was very enjoyable, incredibly hard work. But do it was um, it was good money actually, when I think about it, compared to compared to some of the The some of the people who are doing the very same thing nowadays, you know, because when I was doing it, you know, we would stand there when we were young, strong man. And, you know, Obama come along and when the getting on the gang I would say, Well, how much do you want, you know, we have a quote a figure for a day a day rate for a job, you know, and someone else will come along and say, well, I'll give you I'll give you an extra 10 or whatever, you know. So we were at we were it was almost like a level playing field you know, you hear stories of arm you know, the same kind of pace work, you know, where, you know, there's a lot of new set of immigrants standing on Cricklewood Broadway and this time around, you know, they're having a bit themselves dying, you know. And there is a very famous book called This is London, which describes our bed the guy called Ben Judah would recommend really get chasing, but um, and he relates I think, the worst example he came across was a group of guys standing on the corner, and the next day, they undercut themselves and what's the one guy ended up doing a full day's work for the price of a dinner? You know? So I think you know, even though I was working very hard, I think, you know, we were we weren't we weren't body all through for young single manual. We had a, we had a great time, you know, a Kimora stayed in a b&b or not a sort of black wholesale b&b but a b&b on were just a lot of single man, just kind of Dorst you know, and I always tell the story of you know, there was 18 of us 18 of us in our house you know, a three bedroom house and the and I had took me a week to realize that the bed I was sleeping in when I was getting up but half six in the morning to go ahead and stand on the on the Broadway to get picked up but an hour later there was another guy coming in off the night shift sleeping in my bed you know, so it was so it took that I was naive it also gullible took me a week to really understand what was going on. But um, but nevertheless it was a it was an eye opener you know and say no, no we weren't badly offers a single man with no real kana responsibilities all and understand send some money home when we when we could, you know. Yeah. And then then about a sort of a weekends as well. It was working, working on a really famous Aries punk called Betty Mulligan's.

It was like the wild west of the weekend, you know, a bit of an area's cliche, lots of drinking, lots of fighting. But yeah, you know, that sort of taught you a few few life experiences as well.

Jason Butler 28:00
So this stage was still single, right? You're still in the BMB? Did? How did your life change?

Mick McAteer 28:07
A couple of couple of minutes. Got a flat together rented a flat. Yeah.

Jason Butler 28:16
Okay, so you've got a bit more stable, you were doing okay, you were still sending money home. So we were in terms of your relationship with money, then you just had enough coming in, you have enough for going out and enough to send home but you weren't really accumulating wealth? Or you were there was no master plan, or you weren't thinking about buying a house or anything? You were just just getting by each day? Right?

Mick McAteer 28:37
Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Right. Just, there's a, there's a, there's another really interesting book I just read recently called lovers and strangers is about a story of immigrants and to the UK and what I find interesting, and it's just wrong and wrong. So true, with me, was a lot a lot of the, a lot of the slides and came over, you know, rightly, from the 50s and 60s, right through the 80s you know, never really saw themselves as staying, you know, so they just thought they were going to be here for a few years, having a good time, you know, get better savings go back home and more habia. So they never really planned the sort of put down roots, you know, time just passed, and before they knew it, they were they were here 30 odd years, you know, or whatever, until we die, you know,

Jason Butler 29:35
and say Where did that we'll go

Mick McAteer 29:37
over them when they go, you know, so isn't as it's a very interesting point. I see. Whereas, I think in order to look at some of that, you know, some of the hazing communities and communities who came so far out of travel so far from home, or they had a much longer term view on life a long time Look, look on life, you know, so think for a while Was it I was not that kind of boy to think of where I was not planning to stay here, you know, I want to work a bit to a couple years and eventually go back home. Let's see what happens, you know. But yeah, on and on. And then, almost bizarrely, in 1986, I saw an advertisement in the evening standard for this thing called an investment company. And I had no idea what this was the honest you. And they were looking for someone who was good at mathematics, you know, and, and that's the one thing I am really good at, you know. And so, I've got a job in the city, the city of London, you don't? The

Jason Butler 30:45
one on the strength of being good at maths?

Mick McAteer 30:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, this, this was the this was the big bang, don't forget, you know. And the city has been opened up into or opened up to people, you know, you're the famous cliche that the rather insulting cliche, but to borrow boys from the stand, and, you know, the sort of the plebs were allowed to go and work in the city, you know, so that the impact of the American firms and all in the Big Bang itself, and the fact that for the first time, you know, senior people from the senior people who ran big firms in the city actually had started to come from, you know, I'd say the usual kind of upper class or our Socratic background, you know, they're being run by young young people, working class guys who'd made good rolan people who've been who've had the jobs handed to them and also

So what Yeah, so I got a, I got a job, very junior job to begin to begin with, working in the city, analyzing data, doing risk analysis of pension funds, and stock markets and what have you. But I remember my first job, the first one, the first things I had to do when to when I started, there was a down this is remember, this is way way before we had any real technology being used in, in the financial sector. So what I had to do was out, every every morning, when I first came into the office, I used to have to get the F t, from the previous day, from the firm had this big massive Red Red ledger. And so we used to have to copy the prices from the F t into this book, every day, all the closing prices and all the all the relevant markets in the the top 30 shares, I think it was you give prices on what have you. And, and the senior foreign managers used to come along. And if they wanted to calculate the performance of their, their portfolios, then we'd have to use the prices over the book, rather than look up data stream or whatever it was, in those days, you know, it was it was still very, very manually manual based, funnily enough. And the first one, whenever we wanted to plot a chart, you know, everyone got very excited when they when they when they bought this big, massive kind of printing machine, you know, and so there was literally a device we had to program and coordinates into this machine. And you'd sit and watch it was like the old sort of tele printer thing and these these crayons will go around the graph, or on the paper side plotting the, the price movements after you had your board laboriously entered the enter the data manually. But, but yeah, became more interesting. As I say, the Americans came into the market. And when they started to introduce more statistical analysis, ethical techniques, econometric analysis, really professionalized the idea of analyzing risk and portfolios. And that's what

Jason Butler 34:06
you're doing was it you were sort of Yeah, risk analysis. And yeah,

Mick McAteer 34:10
exactly. Yeah. Well, risk analysis and performance attribution. and developing mathematical techniques really disrupt, to try and identify risk in markets.

Jason Butler 34:24
And just before you go on, but if anyone is any mathematical understanding, and even if you haven't, there's a thing called modified deitz isn't there. And the different statistical analysis of how you do performance, if you're interested in really hurting your head, go and look at that stuff. Because it is really it's part of the Chartered Financial Analyst exam. I remember doing my stats exams, looking at modified dates and things like that and thinking, I never ever want to see this ever again when I finished this study. So there's different ways of skinning a cat, I think is the point. Anyway, I digress. So, so you were you were in the same boat.

Mick McAteer 35:00
Sorry, sir. You know, I mean, you know, we weren't even doing that level stuff at the beginning, you know, it was just really rudimentary. Yeah, you know, but as I say, but it was honestly, you know, you know, it's kind of hard to believe these days, you know, but Tran, some of the older fund managers. You know, I've never even really said to them, the average p e ratio in the market is no, you know, 30% above its long term average, they would look at you and go well, so what, you know, they paid no attention to anything other than fundamentals, in terms of company that they understood, you know, they paid no, no attention whatsoever to, you know, fragile market ratios, measures measures that were telling them that the markets overvalued or undervalued or whatever, they didn't care, you know, they refused to use statistics and refuse to use technology.

Jason Butler 35:58
So how did you If I can just say, How were you personally? How were you still renting? digs? Have you charms or what? Yeah, you were still living for the day, you're obviously thinking you may go home tomorrow doing the statistical analysis of bits of paper, and this this plotting machine that probably cost a million quid time? And how did you how did you What did anything change? Or did you just carry on doing that until computers came in and the internet started? I mean, what what how did your life progress?

Mick McAteer 36:24
Well, then I moved, moved firm and got good promotion, you know.

But again, that was because I think that I mean, I don't think giveaway names or anything the god chasing numbers, because the guy who recruited me was a, your second generation Irish, you know, and he came from a conscious state in Wolverhampton, you know, so he knew what it was, like, you know, to kind of give me a chance, you know, and that was really interesting. You know, my boss was that you're a brilliant woman, really inspirational on my immediate boss, and she was just, yes, he just really gave me an opportunity really to, to learn learn new things, you know, and it was such an exciting time anyway, you know, I'm, you know, doing the web, you're probably too young to remember about the, the kind of the register traders and representatives exams.

Jason Butler 37:25
My wife did it. That's how I met. Reggie.

Mick McAteer 37:29
Yeah, you know, I've never been so nervous. My, my, my boss gave me my immediate boss, he she gave me a glass of whiskey seven years before that it you know, because it, you know, it just wasn't used to doing exams for such a long, long time. You know?

but anyway, but that was a very good experience. Then, I had planned to move again, a few years later, to another big four management firm that fell three, sadly, because the guy who recruited me paid very suddenly. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I kind of fell through, you know, so I ended up going back home for about a year. And then I come back to London, because I think, you know, things have really not improved back home. All that time, you know. So I come back to London. And then I've got a journalist that's going to start it which which magazine running?

Jason Butler 38:32
Yeah, because you you, you were research today, right? news. I

Mick McAteer 38:35
was actually Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, initially, I was, uh, I was, first of all, I was actually head of the data analysis that was used for the imports. Yeah, yeah. And then I actually became a writer and researcher for the magazine him because I've always wanted to be a Canada journalist, you know, and it's, you know, it's I know, it's about sort of medicine of a stranger but I genuinely believe to this day. You're, which magazine is probably the home of was always the home of proper journalism, in the sense that you know, but he started off with a sort of Rocky doing the research and analysis and then he wrote the story around that rather than starting off with a predetermined narrative and then find the evidence to support that narrative. No. So and it really, really taught me taught me how to rate properly. I think rates are simply I mean, he also had I think I had a pretty good education when I went to school back home, you know, put on Yeah, the being a sort of being a writer and researcher in the magazines for which was actually incredibly, incredibly helpful. on for a while, even, I even ran a special investment supplement for for what Anyway, I edited an investment supplement for the for the for the organization.

Jason Butler 40:06
And that was before the head which Money Magazine wasn't a separate I was

Mick McAteer 40:09
the forerunner of that. Yeah, that's right. Interestingly, there used to be a witch money before I started, then it stopped and then sort of up again, you know, but you know how these things come and going, you know, they're they're always changing the Canada, the portfolio of of magazines, as it were, you know. But yeah, so But then,

whenever Sheila Sheila McKechnie took over, she really wanted to really build up the campaigning say, you know, in the policy side, and she, she, she see, CBC was actually she wanted people to join the policy and campaigns side as well. So I moved from the magazine side to the, to the more campaigning settings really, and that's really where that kind of made my name is that you know, when the campaigning

Jason Butler 41:02
as you started writing, right, okay, so when you first started doing it, I

Mick McAteer 41:07
started I started I started writing when I worked for the, the magazine side of magazine. So yeah, sort of hitting,

Jason Butler 41:14
what was your, what was your relationship with money, like, at this stage, bear in mind, you're doing the investment supplement, you've done all this analysis you you've you've been in home a few times, and come back, were you? Were you still a free spirit thinking you were gonna leave any moment? Wherever you lay your head was your home, will you start?

Mick McAteer 41:31
them? That's when I really started thinking about thinking about long thinking about the future. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I was in a relationship and had a child and, and so and also that. Yeah, that's what really moved on to the agenda.

Jason Butler 41:50
So you start to think, Oh, I gotta, I gotta grow up a bit. Was that the big epiphany that, that when a little person comes into the world, because it certainly affects a lot of people I speak to on the show, tell me that was a big wake up call. Because it's that paradox between when you're just you, you can take all the risks and do any go down any route you want. Right? Okay, doesn't matter. It's just you, but when it's someone else, it's kind of becomes much more, almost like you're not that 21 year old again, right.

Mick McAteer 42:15
Yeah, absolutely. Right. You know, I think it was a combination of that. But also I think I kind of realized that it was here for the long run, you know, because remember what I was saying about how he when I first came over here I don't have any slides would have just thought well you know, you're here for for better cracking on you know, you'll go back home SIRs will point landing routes, you know, I think I had tried that on back a solar things hadn't got any better back home. So I came back to London, where the opportunities were, and I think I can immune the back and remain that. I was here for the long run.

Jason Butler 42:54
So in terms of your family situation, how did that change? What you did with your money? Were you did you decide to buy a house? Or did you still rent or what? What changed? Well,

Mick McAteer 43:05
we did rent for a while then sadly, we split up, you know. So I didn't buy a place immediately. So wasn't telling me that told me but

but after that really got a bunch of waterflood Really? Yeah. You took a bit long? Yeah.

Jason Butler 43:25
Yeah. But it's never the right time is it to buy a house in the end of the day and you and, and in terms of if you think about how you think and view about money now personally, you know, how, how it affects you emotionally or how it makes you feel as a person. How has that changed over the years?

Mick McAteer 43:47
that's a really good question. I think

I mean, I wouldn't say we're not I don't think we're not gonna live forever particularly wealthy, you know, but we're clearly clearly comfortable You know? And you know, we're not we're not exactly extravagant you know, we don't we don't live in a big house you know, we still have a flat you know, and I still have a kind of a bull call back home in case the worst cut in case that worst comes to worst if you're someone that you can run to you know, it's so cautious in a way you know, we know we don't we enjoy a few nights a week we spend a lot of money supporting are some a university but apart from that we're not we enjoy a holiday when we can once a year or whatever. couple of tips backyard and just to see the relatives you know, but we're not it's only recently we have a car that's falling off, because my mother in law died and we weren't asked the car, but we never ever bought a car because you couldn't see that. You're living not the point and you know, so we wouldn't be we wouldn't They sort of begin to luxuries, you know. But, uh, so we are comfortable on I think we're sort of relatively prudent, I think. Maybe it has something to do with the gentleman, we're where we've got an awful lot of savings, which I'm sure, you'd probably invite you probably advisors and make better use of, you know, chasing your boat. But maybe it's the background? I don't know. But I think there's something quite comforting and having a good bit of cash sitting behind. Yeah, just in case. And always, just in case,

Jason Butler 45:36
yeah. But there's the issue isn't there money means different things to different people at different times in their life, right. And if you've had a very difficult upbringing, in terms of scarcity, then you're naturally going to want what we call hold, you know, you call it cache, you know, you're going to want to hold it as opposed to do anything else with it. It's nothing wrong with that. But the key is, to what extent do you think do you see or have you experienced? Or do you think that, and I'm not talking here, people with serious mental health issues, or very vulnerable groups, but just the general people how they become enslaved sometimes to the, for the love of money, or they if they could just win the lottery, if they could just, you know, as they put their life on hold at the altar of materialism, or the or the altar of wealth, not that there's anything wrong, you don't want the misery of poverty is a difficult thing, right? And that is a search or find a way to be miserable, if you've got absolutely nothing for your essentials. But to what extent do you think some, some people stay vulnerable, because they just can't seem to go beyond consumption or trying to live the life that others perhaps think that they should be living? And this this, what social media in the media in general, kind of says is the good life? I'm just interested in your thoughts on that?

Mick McAteer 46:48
Yeah, yeah, I think I think it's a really good point, you know, I'm honestly, I would never ever, I would never ever judge anybody in on how they behave, you know, I just can't do that, you know, it's not my position to do so. You know. But I do worry, I do worry a lot actually, about that. You know, I know, we've we've exchanged pleas before on consumer credit and stuff on Twitter, and so on, you know, and, but I really do think this combination of, you know, various addictive advertising, you know, the consumerism, that is embedded in society notice and easy credit, I think, has been a fatal combination. to a lot of people, you know, want to add has got people into a lot of a lot of trouble, you know, you know, as I say a daughter can't not only judge anybody, you know, as somebody can't actually do that, you know, so I'm certainly not judging anybody. But, you know, I think I've just been lucky in the sense that, you know, my sense of warfare, my value system, or whatever isn't based on material goods, you know, I don't criticize anybody else who, whose sense of worth is based on material goods, or material values are, that's up to them. But sadly, I do think, as a society, we have become too impressed and to obsess with material goods. And our combination of materialism and consumerism and easy credit. I think it was done as a lot of damage. Yeah.

Jason Butler 48:25
Yeah, the abundant life is not always the one where you're consuming all the time is like, we don't want to make judgments or tell people what a good life is, but it's just that,

Mick McAteer 48:34
you know, I obviously enjoy simple things, you know, you know, I'm gonna,

if I have one, one extravagance is going to the restaurant, you know, and I don't even like, expensive restaurants or like places where we know the owner, we will, the staff will just sit and have a chat. You don't want a system that says but the experience, you know, it's about that, you know, I'm an affiliate myself over the years, trying to sort of build even closer, build deeper roots within my local community, you know, just think community is so important, you know, and, and that's what, that's what I find even more than sort of having a big car or more of a close or flying thousands of miles to some resort or whatever. It's just not for me, you know, I can understand why people like that, you know, it's, but that's not the that's not what, that's not that's not what sort of interests me, you know, I think it's about family and things like community,

community is really important to me. And I think it's about the wider public good. You know,

Jason Butler 49:41
what all the studies show that the people who live the longest and happiest and most fulfilling lives are the ones who have the most deepest and widest connections in society and community so so you're absolutely there. Hello, MC. I could talk to you all day. I love hearing from you. You're a very genuine, honest open guy. I love the fact you you graciously given us some of your time. What do you want to People with the real money stories, podcast, any parting message you want to make about the whole, you know, role of money?

Mick McAteer 50:09
When it comes to

no matter, I thought you only asked me questions about money management stuff, you know, I was I was dreading that too, because, you know, the only I don't have any real kind of tips or tricks or getting principles apart from sort of keep it simple. Really, you know what I think it's about making sure you have enough to fall back in, you know, times get tough, you know, and times could get tough on him. People shouldn't forget that. He be surprised that he happens to, you know, so think it's all about just having enough to fall back on but the rest of it is the rest of his kidding. It's simple. There are things more important than life the moment they really really are.

Jason Butler 50:53
Make McAteer, social pioneer justice guy, generally. interesting guy I love I love seeing stuff on Twitter. People want to sort of follow you see you you're on social media, is it Mick McAteer on so on Twitter,

Mick McAteer 51:09
it's just @ Mick McAteer, Yeah,

Jason Butler 51:10
yeah. And you've got to have you got a website?

Mick McAteer 51:13
Yeah, well, the only website is www.inclusioncentre.org.uk.

Jason Butler 51:20
Good. So if people want to find out more about that, we'll make sure that's in the show notes. They can I can, I can contact you by that. Yeah. Awesome. Great. Thanks very much for your time being on the show.

Mick McAteer 51:30
Brilliant. Thanks, Jason. pleasure.

Jason Butler 51:36
Thanks for listening to Real Money Stories with me, Jason Butler. If you like what you hear, please do tell your friends. And more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app, because it really does help us get the message out there. So until next time, good luck with your money journey. Real Money Stories is sponsored by Vanguard bringing value to 30 million investors worldwide. Visit Vanguard investor.co.uk for more details. The value of investments can go down as well as up and you may get back less than you invested.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai