42. Lien Luu Goes From Adversity To Prosperity

Listen to this Real Money Stories episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Gaana, Stitcher or Podbean by clicking the links and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

This week I speak to Dr Lien Luu, Chartered Financial Planner and Associate Professor in Finance at Coventry Business School.

Growing up in Vietnam, Lien’s first impression of managing money from her parents was a simple and frugal approach without luxuries.

As a 13 year old, Lien and her family fled as refugees from the conflict and humanitarian problems in their home country. Arriving in the UK as a refugee, via a precarious sea journey as one of the ‘boat people’ exodus, she experienced a cultural shock. By western standards she was confronted with a sense of embarrassment at her family’s financial situation.

Yet taking control, she decided hard work was the route to a better life.

A humbling perspective on the value of money, the power of determination and the satisfaction of frugality.

Episode Transcript

Jason Butler 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the real money stories podcast. Real Money stories is the only UK podcast which shares personal money stories of everyday people. So their insights can help you to be better with money.

My name is Jason Butler. And I invite you to join me as I have intimate money conversations with people from all walks of life. Whether you're just starting out on your money, journey, or world on the track, there's bound to be something you can learn from these stories about taking more control of your money, so you worry less and enjoy life more.

Hello, and thanks for joining us on another episode of Real Money Stories, the podcast where we speak to people from a wide range of backgrounds, about their money journey, what they've learned what they believe, and their ups and downs and really, how they've used money to help them get where they want to go in life.

Really excited this week to be joined by a good friend of mine, is it Dr. Lien Luu?

Lien Luu 1:05
You can call me Lien.

Jason Butler 1:06
Okay. All right. Well, Lien Luu, who is, well, I'll let her tell you what she does. But she's good friend of mine. And so Lien, thank you for coming on show.

Lien Luu 1:16
Thank you very much, Jason, for inviting me to take part.

Jason Butler 1:18
That's all right. Sure. So before we go into the the your very, very fascinating back story. Do you want to just tell everyone what you do now?

Lien Luu 1:28
I teach at university and I teach at Coventry Business School, and my special my special subjects are pensions and insurance, and personal finance and all the financial services qualifications.

Jason Butler 1:43
Yes, I know and I've seen you in action. Very good you are as well. And you're a certified financial planner as well aren't you?

Lien Luu 1:49
Yes, I am certified CFA.

Yeah, yeah, good stuff. Okay, now, let's go right back because you've got a fascinating story. Tell us you know, sort of your early experiences with money and stuff like that growing up.

Unknown Speaker 2:07
I was thinking about this today. And

Lien Luu 2:12
I was thinking about this today and when I was growing up, I don't think we ever talked a lot about money with my parents. It's something something hidden in the background, but we never really talked about it. But thinking about it, I suppose what I observe about my parents are three things. First, I noticed that they work very, very hard. My parents work every day, from eight in the morning till 11pm in the evening, and they they rarely have a holiday or break. So I suppose that kind of rubs off on me because I always feel guilty when I'm not doing anything useful. So I'm always working and you know, my parents always working. The second thing is that my parents also lead a very simple and frugal life.

They didn't have any, you know, they tried very hard to save and live within their means. They didn't really have any luxuries in life really like eating out, going on the following holidays, or paying for Netflix. Well, we didn't have Netflix then. But they didn't, you know, subscribe to any magazines or any channels, anything like that. And they always, they always thought very hard about before they spend the money. And I suppose I inherit the same trait and I feel guilty about spending money on things like clothes, eating out going out. And like my father, I always tried to be sensible and think before I spend.

The third thing about my parents and growing up with them is that they always put others first.

We have many relatives overseas, including my, my grandmother, my grandmother, and my uncles, and Auntie's and all that and in our culture

It's our duty to support them financially. And so obviously in England, we were not that rich, but in relative terms, we were rich to the my relatives. So every year, my parents would send money to their relatives in abroad. And my father saw this as his duty really. And sometimes they often receive requests for money for to help with emergencies. And they, they felt they uneasy and unhappy when they could not send money to those who requested that. And I noticed that my parents even though they didn't talk about money, but I felt a lot of anxiety, money, anxiety and worries. And because, you know, they had to rely on the labor to make money and they know that you know, to send a few hundred pounds abroad is not an easy thing for them. So they're worried a lot and you know, so I tried not to be a burden on them, and I rarely asked for

money to buy things. So the only major expense I had was a school trip to Devon as part of my a level but I tried to be a good girl and not ask for any money and be a burden on them.

Jason Butler 5:12
Because you grew up in Vietnam, didn't you? I did. Yes. Hmm. So is the,

you know, as you were, how old were you when you came to the UK?

Lien Luu 5:21
Yes, I was 13.

Jason Butler 5:24
So, prior to coming to the UK, having lived in Vietnam, your parents were quite frugal, they're very hard working, they didn't waste money and they had this sense of obligation for the, for the wider family and community. When you came to the UK fair when you're 13. Was that a really big culture shock?

Lien Luu 5:44
It was in some ways,

in Vietnam, although we had less money, or we felt privileged because my father had a good job, working for the government and although

You know, by Western standards, he didn't earn very much, but for getting the standards, he earned a lot more than others. And in Vietnam, all the major kind of essential items were rationed. So things like meat, sugar, clothes, cloths, and you are rationed, according to your status in society. So my father always had more rations than others. And he earned, you know, twice as much as my auntie who was a teacher. So although we were poor in absolute terms, we weren't we felt more privileged and richer in relative terms. And my father also had a chauffeur, who drove him around for work, but you know, a few people had a chauffeur on a car. So my father had that so we never felt poor in getting them even though we lived in a very poor country.

Jason Butler 6:56
So it's relative in your in in the base level of expectation

And living standards there, your parent family would say you would say your family is above affluent in that society at that time.

Lien Luu 7:07
we were comfortable. We were comfortable because we knew that we always get more than others. And my father, we had a good position in society ie positions that came with power. So my father had a quite important job and he managed a big team. And he had a, you know, good educational background. So he had a very respectable job

in the government. So, you know, he wasn't, you know, a labor or anything like that. But when we came to the UK, it was, it was a shock because we lost all that. Well, my father lost all that he lost all the status, and we didn't have much money. So when we came to the UK, I think we only had about 200 pounds. And we lived, we were given a lot of charity, got a lot of goods and furniture, by charities. So all the

furniture we had in house was given by charities. So I was really impressed by the generosity of the British people. In fact, I thought to myself, well, these people didn't know me, I don't know us at all, but they still generous, you know, they gave us a bamboo house to live in. And they furnish the house with all the furniture beds, and all the furniture was old. But the fact that it was it was fully furnished, meant that we can, you know, get on and move in brand new carpets, but the rest of the furniture, the beddings, everything was old, secondhand clothes.

And then, you know, obviously, we didn't have much money. So a lot of things we bought, we have to buy through the woods where you could pay weekly, you know, so you know, if we went to buy a new sofa, for example, a new cupboard or wardrobe, we just pay weekly. So, and that was quite unusual because we didn't have the option of buying on credit in Vietnam. So in Vietnam,you don't have money, you don't spend or you could, you could borrow from your relatives but you can't. You don't borrow from financial companies like with the woods or bands or anything like that. So it's quite different.

Jason Butler 9:12
So you're, you come to the UK, your mom and dad, you know, not come here with 200 pounds, whatever. But there's there's some housing, there's some basic, not glamorous but basic furniture and stuff. And What impact did that have on you as a person as you were sort of starting to go to school, you know, that very big change in status that your mother and father had had? Certainly father. Although you had, you know, stability and your nice place to live? What impact did that have on you and how it affected your, your views about money, wealth, earnings, careers, that kind of stuff?

Lien Luu 9:47
Well, strangely enough. I didn't have much thoughts about money and well, when I first came to the UK, or even when I was in Vietnam, money was never a big thing in our country. My life or my parents life, we never talked about it, we never thought it was important enough to, to think about it. So I wasn't thinking about money at all, even though we were poor, in comparison to other people in the UK, but I think I did feel a bit embarrassed about my background. Who I was because I felt that you know, I when I was on school, free school meals, and my parents couldn't speak English. And so I felt a bit embarrassed when other children you know, students asked me about where it came from. And they sometimes they tease me or you you know, you boat people know all that so that's how, you know we fled Vietnam in boats so they, they called us the boat people. But what it what is the greatest impact they had on me was that it made me more determined than ever to do well. So I realized that the only way for me to succeed in this society was to study hard and succeed in that and to get qualifications. So, after the first year, I excelled in math. Many students who came from Vietnam, they often excel in maths, because in Vietnam, you have to be strong in math. And so I, you know, even after year one, I had teachers notice me because they saw that I worked hard, and I was good at maths. I was good at German, which I thought was my second language. My English was improving. And so by the end of the end of the second secondary school, I was entered for more qualifications than other children in my students in my classroom. So I think others began to treat me in different ways, but initially, I think they thought I wasn't very clever because I couldn't speak English. But after a year or so they began to change their views about me.

Jason Butler 12:00
it's very topical, isn't it with the whole issue about bam, and all this sort of stuff that you came with nothing. You might have got some teasing, possibly some racism. Who knows? Even if it was in implicit, but you took control and decided hard work and education was your route to a better life, right?

Lien Luu 12:20
Definitely. Yeah. Right. So I realized that the only thing I could do study because that was the only thing in my control, everything else I could not control.

Jason Butler 12:29
So you didn't have lofty ideas about you know, earning money and stuff. You just thought I've got to do gotta get an education. And then I'll figure out from there, there was no master plan, right?

Lien Luu 12:39
There was no master plan. go to university. So I think the only dream I had then was go to university. That's the only dream I had. So I spent, you know, all the time I have reading, you know, learning words in the dictionary and has worked really hard.

Jason Butler 12:56
So in a way and in fact, you you are living enbodiment theory that you don't need it really a plan, what you need to do is do your next best step. So in other words, do your the next best action that you need to do to move forward and do it to your best of your ability. And you'll figure it out as you go right work with what you've got the resources you have.

Lien Luu 13:15
Yeah. So if I have a master plan, who knows where I might be, what I might be now

Jason Butler 13:21
well you're doing, okay, so Okay, so you went to university and I was just, I'm trying to think you're a little bit younger than me at that same age, but he was when University was it was all paid for, is that right?

Lien Luu 13:33
That's right. I was lucky enough to get all the grades I needed. And I could, I was, you know, debating whether I should go to LSE to study economics, or go to somewhere else to study international relations. And so I ended I went I ended up not going to London because I felt a bit intimidated. I think living in a big city like London. And living off campus, I went to Sussex where I had a great time. And, you know, spending four years there, studying German and international relations, and I spent one year in Germany.

Jason Butler 14:13
Right? Did you end up with a Master's?

Lien Luu 14:16
No, I know in those days, you you would do four years, three years in the UK and one year abroad, and you still end up with a BA.

Jason Butler 14:27
So how did you notwithstanding the fact the education was provided? And you got some maintenance? grants? Weren't they then towards living? Yes. Do I take it that you weren't sort of uh, you weren't burning the midnight oil with all the latest nightclubs and parties? You were you were spending in your means? I mean, how did you? How did you come and do you come out financially intact when you left uni? Because that's, that's often the period when young people do kind of get out of control, isn't it?

Lien Luu 14:52
Yes, I would say sensible because I, you know, I remember I you know, I always have a picture of my parents working late into the evening, so that kind of like inspires me or encouraged me to work hard. So I, I didn't spend many days and nights in bars and going out socializing. So I was very sensible. So I actually when I finished university, I had no debts, but I had some savings in fact. So, you know, I lived very modestly and I followed the life that my parents set an example for me. So I always, I always have money, even though I didn't get very much because, you know, you could control your expenses, isn't it? So one thing you can control your expenses, you can't control your income, but you could you can control what you spent your money on.

Jason Butler 15:41
So you came out with savings and then what did you have a part time job at uni? Or was that just yesterday you lived on Ryvita and beans? I don't know.

Lien Luu 15:49
I just I came out I think, you know, I I always I always have money. I don't know how, but I you know, I don't smoke. I don't drink. I hardly go to the bars. And, and you know, it just says I only buy, you know, pizzas and eating out. So if you don't do any of those things, you can save a lot of money anyway. And I did not. I didn't buy much clothes either. So if you can sort of like tick that off your list, you'll be rich.

Jason Butler 16:20
So this seems to me that the money script as we call it, that you got from your parents, we've run out frugality, responsibility, simplicity, and, and hard graft. That seems to me that almost in a way that spending money almost was kind of frowned upon by the sounds of it because it was so hard to come by. Is that fair to say?

Lien Luu 16:40
Yes, I think my parents taught us that, you know, obviously if you need to spend money, spend it but Spend it wisely. Do not waste money. Because it is, you know, earning money for them was hard work. They had to sweat to earn 80 pounds they got, so that kind of like I realized that the value of money and not to waste it.

Jason Butler 17:08
So you graduated. What did you do after you left university? Do you? Did you go back to Vietnam? Or did you do some traveling or did you go straight into the workplace or what happened next.

Lien Luu 17:21
And after I finished university, I was applying for jobs. And I was lucky to meet a ticket to go get an offer to do a PhD at the University of London. I went for job interview, but I didn't get it because I didn't have the experience needed for the project. They wanted someone to work on a research project on the history of London, but my first degree was actually on international relations. So there was nothing, you know, relevant, relevant about about my first degree, but they liked me and so they decided to find the money to sponser me to do a PhD on the same project. So the project, the the person who funded the project is quite was quite amazing person. In fact, he was an enterpreneur. And he made his money from industry. And but he had a curiosity about history. He was fascinated by history, in fact, and he wanted to find out how London became a great city in the 17th and 18th centuries, how did London became the great workshop of the world? And so he gave you gave a few million pounds to the University of Oxford and London to undertake a few projects to give him answers to questions that he came up with. So I was very lucky to go for this job interview where I was interviewed by 12 distinguished professors, and they asked me a lot of questions about the project and how I could contribute. And one of the persons on on the panel was the the sponsor. He and when they discussed the fact that they wanted me to be on the project, but I wasn't qualified to you know, be offered the job. He said that if money was the issue, then he could come up with the money and, and get me on board. So that's what he did. So he paid for my PhD. So I went straight from my first degree to PhD without doing a master and that's quite unusual route.

Jason Butler 19:27
But you were you obviously had something that the sponsor he could see in you that just thought you know, she's got something.

Lien Luu 19:33
Yes, I suppose I had a I felt a lot of confidence when I finished university. I felt that the one thing about University is that it made you feel confident about yourself and about your, what you could do your potential. So I applied for the job, even though I knew I wasn't qualified, based on the criteria they listed. I also what I also did was to show them what I could do. So while I was in Germany. I did a research project. So I send them a copy of my dissertation to show them the kind of research I could undertake. So based on my dissertation, which I sent, they invited me for an interview. And I was the youngest, the only female person to be invited for the interview. And obviously the only non white as well. But yeah, I was very lucky. So I suppose I had love energy. I had a love, interest and enthusiasm. So they, you know, they saw my potential and offered me the chance to do something quite, quite life changing.

Jason Butler 20:38
So this was obviously wouldn't have been on a very big salary, would it but then you weren't really spending a lot were you? So this stage you still felt you're getting ready, did you?

Lien Luu 20:48
Yes. I think in those days, they, I think the grant was that few thousand a year which, you know, you know, doesn't seem a lot in though nowadays, but in those days, I mean, I could live, I could live, you know, happily on that. I had enough to pay my rent my food, my travel, and do whatever I needed to do to travel to Europe to do research. And so money wasn't an issue at all, even though I was living on a grant. And my sponsor actually was quite generous. When I asked him for loan to, to buy a Travel Card in London, he just gave me the whole amount outright. He said, If you want you needed money to buy the Travel Card, one around, give you a present and buy your travel card with it. And then when we make good progress with our research, he just gave us 1000 pounds as a reward. So think about I think, you know, small gesture like that, I think makes a big difference to our lives even though, you know, a few thousand for him. wasn't, you know, it wasn't that great, but it made a big difference to us. You know, he appreciated us and, you know, when I think back to those days, I always remembered his kindness and generosity.

Jason Butler 22:03
And of course, another thing we must always remember when people have success in their life is that there is some degree of luck. So you someone could do the same thing as you but not have met that sponsor. So that was helpful, but nevertheless, you still take took advantage of the luck that was presented.

Lien Luu 22:17
Yes, I feel very lucky. I just met the people and they're great.

Jason Butler 22:22
Yeah. So So how long did you do that? Research well for then?

Lien Luu 22:28
I, I spent about four, four years of my life doing full time research. And then when the money ran out, I I took a part time job at the University of London working for big professor, a famous Professor on another research project. So the work was flexible and my job was going to the library and transcribe very important historical documents, so that the professor could publish the documents. So you know, all you know that a lot of history documents are very difficult to read. And they are in archives, so they need someone to go there, read the documents and transcribe them. I typed them on a computer so they can be published. So I did that for two years at Birkbeck college. So that did me. Yeah. Good salary to support me why I finished my PhD.

Jason Butler 23:25
So this stage, how are you financially? Were you saving furiously? Or were you still sending money back to Vietnam? Are you helping your mom and dad out? What was the position now?

Lien Luu 23:34
No, I didn't have to support anyone. I only needed to support myself. And my parents occasionally came and buy me things like you know, a radio cassette player, that kind of thing to treat, but I didn't need any money for my parents. I didn't have to support my parents. And yeah, so I didn't have to support anyone either. I only needed to support myself. So that was quite good.

Jason Butler 23:58
So you're saving were you?

Lien Luu 24:00
I was. Yes.

Jason Butler 24:04
And so I'm just trying to think here. So you were you were you were constantly investing in yourself when you essentially you were investing like human capital, your ability to, you know. So in a way, and I've seen this before, I don't know if you agree with this, but sometimes when you, you're new to a country, you almost feel like you have to work a bit harder. Not necessarily you do, but you you feel that you've got to have to, you know, prove yourself, you know, and, youknow,

Unknown Speaker 24:28
know,

Jason Butler 24:29
yeah, I felt that because, well, in some ways, and, you know, when I went to school,

Lien Luu 24:35
when I first arrived in, in the UK, a lot of people thought that maybe, you know, working in a bank was good enough for me. So actually, when I was 17, two years after I arrived in the UK, four years after only UK, I was offered a job as working at Barclays Bank, and so many teachers are so happy for me because they thought that, you know, the job was just perfect for me. You know, but after spending one year at Barclays bank than I realized that I wanted more, you know, rather than working as a bank clerk, I wanted more, I want something more intellectual but I didn't know whether I could do it or not. And many people didn't know whether I could do it either. But you just have to take a plunge and believe in yourself and just persevere and so that you can do it and so I was very happy to do well my A Levels and get to university which was my dream. So I suppose the important thing is you must believe in yourself because no one else will if you don't, and you just have to invest and work hard and believe in your dream have a dream.

Jason Butler 25:42
So you when you finish the the training, the research that's the second research job at Birkbeck was it? Yes. Then what was your situation then? Because I know you've got quite a large family. So when did that all start? I mean, did you meet your husband then or what? What what And then did you change jobs just just tell us where you were then.

Lien Luu 26:02
So the year I got I finished my PhD. I also got married. Obviously, I met my husband two years before that in the last part of my PhD, but we didn't get married until after I finished my PhD in the same year, I finished my PhD. And he, so we got married. So he just finished his MBA from Cambridge. I just finished my PhD. And I got a job teaching history at at a university in south of England. So I got that job a year before I finished my PhD in fact, so yeah, so we got married on that back in 1997. And, yeah, so I then our first child was born the year after that in 1998. And then we moved to Switzerland. So my husband was offered a very good job in Switzerland. And so we moved to Roseanne for a few years and we really liked living in switzeland Because Did you know that you get paid 13 times more than 12 times, so you get two months of pay at Christmas time. You also get private health care. And we also had a fantastic kind of Lake and flat overlooking Blick everyone. So it was made idyllic, and it was very good materially. But the problem was, is that we missed a family, we miss having the support around us. And I could not do very much because we had a little baby. And she was only one year old, or three months old when we moved to Switzerland. And I found it really difficult to continue my academic career in Switzerland. So yeah, so we stayed there after a few years and came back to England in 2001.

But we came back to England at the wrong time, because, as you know, September 11, struck in that year. It was very difficult for my husband to find jobs in investment banking. And he went for many job interviews, and he nearly got job offers before the event, you know, happened. And after that the banks were just, you know, holding on to high neutral, new recruits. So they stopped hiring, in fact, because there was so much uncertainty around

Jason Butler 28:21
when we've, yeah, and uncertainties always reverse right, as an event show. So it was a difficult time to see it. This little baby, your eldest, who's actually saying, ages, my own eldest daughter was like, yeah,We could say,

Lien Luu 28:36
Yes, that's right. Both are unique. Both are getting older.

Jason Butler 28:39
Yeah. And so you're this little baby. So when you come back to the UK, did you go straight back into a job? Because there must have been a very difficult time financially if your husband wasn't working and was desperately trying to find the right role and you've got a baby?

Lien Luu 28:51
Yeah, well, when we came back to the UK, we had a second baby in Switzerland. So we came back to the UK with two babies. In fact, one you No, obviously we took to the to this system with us. And one was one of them. And then, and then we had a third one on the way. So my husband decided that that he always wanted to set up his own business. And now it wasn't an ideal time to do so. So he, he was given, he was given a chance to take all his pension on with him from back from Switzerland. So he did that. So we we bought a franchise with the money we had. And he started his own business. In fact, he started two businesses. And I was facing a lot of uncertainty in my career because it's very difficult to get a job at university teaching history. And I had left University for, I suppose, a year and a half, and I wasn't sure where they could get back into it again. But luckily, I was able to get another job at a local university with but it's still really involved to three hours driving a day. So that was quite difficult when you have you know, three Young children under five.

Jason Butler 30:03
So, financially, then you were you were coping you, you were just living a very simple life were you?

Lien Luu 30:09
financially, you know, obviously, it wasn't the best in comparison to Switzerland system and we had, you know, more money. But when we came back to the UK, we were happier because we have families, my parents were supporting us with child care. And we had a house in London, which we rented out. And we were, we were able to obtain some income from that. And I also had a job for my for my university work teaching at university. So I, we had a, you know, a, you know, a salary from that as well. So, you know, based on those two things we we managed, but obviously it was quite difficult because we have my in laws to support in Vietnam as well, and we have a business to run and besides the cost the franchise Do you need A lot of fees, pay a lot of fees and the income was never, you know, certain and regular. Because even though you do the work, you never, there was never certainty when when you get paid, and whether you get paid because clients can sometimes sometimes refuse to pay you because they say, Well, you know, I haven't got money at the moment. So you just have to hang on.

Jason Butler 31:23
bank. Really? Yeah.

Lien Luu 31:24
Yeah. So, you know, my husband was working as a management consultant. And he, he helped companies save a lot of money. And I remember one instance, that he helped them save so much money, that it was difficult for them to part with their money. But it was really difficult for young family to do have that to be faced with that situation. When you are reliant. You've been, you know, living off your savings for so long waiting for this money to come. And the clients withheld that money because they needed that money for that and Cash Flow because they didn't want to pay you. Whatever the reason, it still was so painful, isn't it?

Jason Butler 32:06
So what did you obviously you were, so they were difficult years. Right. early to mid noughties? Yeah. So, so how did that how did that business prosper? Or did you end up just giving it up? What happened?

Lien Luu 32:19
No, I think he continue. And he was, it was good business. But he was slow, because he was dealing with big companies, and they take a lot of time to make decisions. And even if once they make the decision, there was a lot of kind of internal, you know, politics as well. So I think what was what was life changing class was that my husband organized a meeting class to meet a financial advisor and to find out whether he could help us and you know, make you have a better life. So my husband met at the financial advisor. I don't want to networking events. So we were meant to see the financial bind to see how we could make better use of our resources. Looking back, I think that that meeting was life changing for me in many ways. You know, I've never spoken to anyone about goals, money, and how to improve, enhance our financial situation alone, you know, discussing that with my husband jointly with him. So the meeting was very empowering for me, because in the meeting, the financial advisors asked us just three questions. You know, what did you what we want to achieve in life? What were our goals? And you know, what was the situation then? And by when we want to achieve this, or these goals, we told him, and he then sketch out our goals and aspirations. And I felt that visualization or mapping was very powerful because I've never articulate those ideas. And desire to anyone before. And so, so after that I felt very inspired. And I changed become a financial advisor.

Jason Butler 34:09
Alright, so there's a career change for you.

Lien Luu 34:11
Yes.

Jason Butler 34:12
Interesting. So you didn't just buy this service, you actually bought it as a career?

Lien Luu 34:17
Yes. So, before I left, the financial advisor said that he was looking for someone to join the company, did we know anyone? And I was cheeky enough to say, Would you take me on as a joke? And he said, why not? You know, you would you be joining us as a self employed, you know, trainee, show me what you can do. And I didn't know what I could do. He didn't know whether he was making the right decision. But he thought, you know, because my husband was his friend, he thought it'd be worthwhile to give me a chance. So I joined and I was very lucky because with the support and the colleagues who I worked with within 18 months became his top advisor.

Jason Butler 35:02
Interesting. So you were actually and what did you learn about yourself from doing that career change, because that's a big change for you. We go from teaching to advising people about their money isn't?

Unknown Speaker 35:13
Well, I suppose I learned that we all have skills and can transfer. So to join financial services, you must like learning. And I love learning, but I just need to shift my mindset from reading history books to reading about finance. And actually, when I started to study financial services, qualifications, I really enjoyed it because I knew that whatever I learned, I could use it for myself, and I also could use that knowledge to help others as well. So I became very popular in parties. You know, when I was teaching at university, you know, no one came to me and told me to talk to me about history, but when they knew that I was trading to become a financial advisor, I you know, people would Come to me and ask me things about, you know what I knew about finance. So it was really very nice. And I also knew that if you believe that you can, if you need to do something up become determined enough, you do do well. And I was very determined because, for me, I had to do well. I support my family and my in law and support a lot of people. So that the drive for me was very, very strong and was very high, the motivation was really high. So I, I have no choice but to succeed. And I was lucky to get receive a lot support. So my husband was obviously supporting me. And I also get a lot of help from my parents who looked after the kids. And the company was also very supportive. And yeah, so I was able to do really well.

Jason Butler 36:50
So it sounds to me like an alignment of resources and kind of vision as it were, or endeavor, and that you just happen to get you know, that everything like The childcare is a big issue for for lots of people, particularly younger parents, and particularly so for for women who are trying to, you know, keep their career on track because that is a big problem, isn't it? And you, yeah, you keep reinforcing the happiness plus the ability for you to do develop your career really hinged on that tight family unit of your mom and your dad and

Unknown Speaker 37:24
yeah, yeah, I we couldn't have we could not have done it if we didn't have my parents or my sister. So we had, you know, so when we, we had two young children, and then we continue to have two more boys as well. So altogether we have five children and my parents. My parents played an important role in the in the childcare in the early years, because obviously, parents and the look on your children's free childcare so if we had paid all that money, you know, to look after five kids, it will be impossible if we wouldn't be able to do it.

Jason Butler 37:59
You You do see? Because Thank you, Mom, Elizabeth, isn't she and there's that sort of reciprocal society. I think there's the word reciprocity, where you're essentially it's a you know, you're giving and taking but you're not keeping Tally. Yeah, I understand. That's not Yeah, that's much more of an Asian culture. That is a British cultural though some British families have that. Yeah. Indigenous families. Yeah. So, um, so quite exciting time for you then. So how did you cope with being self employed? Did you earn much did you I know your husband was supporting you. But did you get off venture you said after 18 months, you were the top person?

Unknown Speaker 38:34
Yes, I after 18 months, money was started to come in, in big waves. And because as you as you know, self employed means that you take all the risks, but the company was good enough in a way because they give you a loan and in by giving you a fixed monthly income to help you settle and get started. Then after that, you just repeat that when you your earnings came in And after two years, I was fine. I was earning good money, more than I earned when I was teaching at university in fact, and I felt that more freedom, I could do what I wanted, and I was in control of my destiny. And I was, you know, I was taking out a lot by different firms and yeah, had a great time working financial services, meeting a lot of people and helping p clients to achieve their goals as well. So that gave me a lot of satisfaction.

Jason Butler 39:29
So after the couple of years being a financial advisor and your husband was doing his consulting and you had five children, what at that stage and your money was starting to come in and what did you learn about yourself, you know, in terms of your relationship with money by then or or certainly your in your husband's relationship with money.

Unknown Speaker 39:48
Well, we learned that actually, we could have a better life, help more people. If we take more interest in money. mean prior to at this time, I suppose we both of us never really took an interest in money. Somehow we just took money for granted. We never planned to make money. So I suppose is only when we I enter financial services and realize what we could do. We started to take control of our finances and realize that actually, we could make money. And so we began to expand our portfolio properties. So up until that point, we only and the property that we lived in, and the one in London, but we realized that actually, we needed to build a residual source of income. And property properly was a good way for us to do it because we saw how the price, how the value of the house we have in London has, you know, increased so much. So we began to we began to take control and invest in properties more and managed to build portfolio properties then.

Jason Butler 41:03
So did you just do that by reading books? Or did you just trial and error or what you just took some interest took some mortgage against one to put two positive out and just keep on leveraging them up. Yeah. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 41:14
Yes. So actually, my role in the firm was to focus on helping clients to build property portfolios, because there was a lot of demand for that a lot of clients came to us and said, Look, we need your help to build property portfolios. So I I was asked to what the clients to help them achieve that. So in the process, I had to go through training to learn how to do it. So I used the knowledge to help ourselves but also our clients. So it was you know, obviously, trial and error you live and learn so we we began to remortgage our house in London took out a bit equity and then use that to to buy a few in cheaper location. So with within a, you know, short space of time, we managed to acquire quite a few.

Jason Butler 42:06
And, and obviously, but the point was that you did have some training. So in other words, you didn't just go straight off and make it up as you went along. You did go on some formal training, even if it was your job to just learn the basics. Right. Okay. And I think that's important for a lot of people. Yeah. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 42:19
Well, I yeah, I mean, as an academic, as you know, I never do things without reading about it. So I, obviously we had to make sure that it's the right thing for us. So I read a lot of books about property investment, I went on a training course. So I invested in a training course I paid, I think I paid I don't know 1500 pounds, to attended a two days training course, and learn about ways to invest in property. And I think that that investment was really worth it. But it's very difficult to find good companies to do the training with because there's so many different companies out there that month, they just want to take your money and I was lucky enough to find This company, he was based in sim building us, our office was, and I was able to attend the training and learn a lot from it. So it was really worth it for me. But yeah, I must stress it's very difficult to find a good training

Jason Butler 43:15
yourself but find good trainers. Yeah. Okay. So you were starting to build what we call passive income. You were started through property, but you were still working as a financial advisor. And your husband was still doing his management consulting, even though it was feast or famine, you know, in terms of the money coming into his business. Mom and Dad, were still doing the childcare and you were starting to get ahead and build wealth right through essence income. Yes, I did. So how did it progress? Did you just keep on ramping up the property or did you do other things or? Well,

Unknown Speaker 43:46
obviously, my father's death was a turning point in my life because after he died, obviously, it was, it was a moment. It was a moment for me to pause about what was really matters to me and what I what my real passion was. And I realized that I really missed being at university, I really miss teaching at university. And so after my father died, I decided to go back to teaching because I realized that actually, with all the knowledge and qualifications I have now, I could go and teach in a business school and empower more people because a lot of students in University are not being taught personal finance. And I felt that with my insights and my knowledge and qualifications, I could help and widen or promote knowledge and understanding about personal finance. So I was lucky enough to to get the position as a senior lecturer in financial services at Northampton University. And so I went back to teach and train people to become financial advisors, financial planners,

Jason Butler 44:56
and I know that that course you have was one of the very few of the Time universities that that's how we met was

Unknown Speaker 45:03
what's right. Yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic course because, obviously, the course was very vocational. And we wanted to help students who really want to become financial planners to learn all the skills they needed. So I was in it was able to bring my knowledge and connection from industry and bring in great speakers like yourself to come and talk to our students. And many students felt inspired by your talks, by the way, one of the students you know, you came to Coventry University, in fact, and spoke to our second year students doing financial services module, and she felt so inspired by it. And now you'd be pleased to know she's looking for great firm in London, and she is grateful to you for your talk, Ben.

Jason Butler 45:48
Oh, well, there we go. You know, thank you. It's very nice. So yeah, Lisa is one person listening. Now this an interesting thing. So So I just want to go back to that thing that you were building passive income you taught yourself how to do it. Property stuff, you're building wealth, you're still living frugally, your husband a new, sort of managing the family situation. But even though you were earning good money and getting ahead, you decided to go back to teaching. And presumably for just the wages that was a pay cut, right?

Unknown Speaker 46:18
And well, in in some ways, but I had, I got more time. What I was looking for was, obviously, working with young people, but also I wanted to spend more time with my kids. Because although I was working, I was earning good money in financial services. I was spending a lot of time working. And I felt that I didn't spend enough time with my children. So I wanted to slow down and spend more time with my kids who were growing up just too quickly. So there's two reasons why I wanted career change. I miss university life, obviously, but I needed more time to publish spend more time with my kids. So, so that's why I went back to university. And I realized that I could make more money other ways. I could, you know, buy more properties. But I just need more time. And I just need to do more things and publish. So that's another reason I wanted to go to university to find time to write books as well.

Jason Butler 47:20
Yeah, the interesting there's two really great points there. The and that's so so important is one you said what was important to you? And and and what people sometimes get stuck in a rut. They don't reappraise what's important, because what's important to you now, is possibly different from what it was five or 10 years ago, and it will be different in five or 10 years hence. So that was good. And the second thing was, you said, I got paid more in time. So it isn't always about the money coming into the bank account if time and none of us have got any can't make any more time Can we? There's not unlimited amounts of life left, as you probably saw with your father's passing, which is probably quite a shock to your family then. Yeah. So so you then embarked on In this career, of continuing to be a property mogul, during your teaching, writing, tell us about the non earning parts of being rich in the sense of you had all this time, what did it enable you to do? So you could have more time with the kids and be a bit more hands on as a parent, but you also could do research and writing. Tell us about that.

Unknown Speaker 48:19
Now, yeah, so I suppose when I was at Northampton, we met and I think, you know, we discussed about working writing books together. And I'm so glad that you know, you agreed, and we managed to write two books together with john kilo as well. So I felt that's worth doing because I felt that a lot of people need to understand about personal finance. A chief financial security especially for women. You know, a lot of people think that, oh, you know, women, why don't why do we need to understand money. We do need to understand money because we have to look after our children. After our ourselves. Look after our parents. We have so many responsibilities. So speaking for myself, for example, I feel that you know, you we have to, I had to learn about money so that I could help my children, my parents, my in laws, and traditionally in Vietnamese culture. The women it also handles manages the family finances as well. So you don't learn how money works, it's very difficult to make the most of it. So I spend more time I managed to find some time to do the research, published white books with you and other colleagues. But I also invest a lot of time helping students to find out what they really want to do with their life and find rewarding careers. So only spend a lot of time coaching other students mentoring them. And we asked, you know, began to set up a mentoring Wealth Management mentoring program at Coventry University where we invite leading financial planners to take part and help our students you know, clarify their career goals and what they want to achieve in life and how to get there. And that's been very successful. And we have, we have more than 45 students taking part in this team this year. So I'm really proud of that.

Jason Butler 50:12
And I know that the course you run now is amazing, because the amount of support you give people and the inspiration and the outside contributions you get are just incredible. And I say it's a it's a, it's an an discovered gym, in financial services, that people that come out of your course are just, you know, I wish I did come out from that kind of training when I joined financial services, because we would have been so much more better prepared. So that's good. So in terms of, if you think about things now, where we are now, obviously a family's growing up husband. I think he's teaching isn't he? And you're teaching and you've got your properties. And what if you could look back and think what you what you know, now that you wish you'd known when you were say, I don't know 18 or 19

Unknown Speaker 50:59
what what That be

Unknown Speaker 51:02
I suppose some I would have five tips for young people or for anyone, I suppose the first one is plan your future. You know, I, we spend a lot of time. I mean, I spend a lot of time study, but I never spent any time planning my life and my finances. And I realized that that's a bit odd, isn't it? You know, finances are so important. And yet we don't spend so much time planning, planning it. We spend a lot of time planning our holidays and buying a car, yet our future about how much money we might need in retirement, for emergencies and that kind of thing. We really think about that. So the first thing is that we need to plan our future. The second thing is that I realized that building a passive source of income is also important because it can release you if you want to, from your day job. And then you can pursue your passions in life. I mean, I'm lucky that I enjoy my role at the universe. And I love being there. But some people might not be lucky enough to enjoy the work. Wherever you don't have a specific source of income, you're stuck to that job, aren't you? You are, you're bound to that role to that job because you need the money to pay your bills. And you've got to trade time for money. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think we need to think about, you know, building a passive source of income independent of us because, you know, we just don't know how long we can work because everyone's inflicted with risk in life like mortality and morbidity, we don't know how healthy we can remain and how long we can work. So therefore we need to find to build a money making machine I suppose that that is independent of us. The third thing that I think is important is learn to invest. My parents always have always saved money, but they didn't know how to invest because they weren't they were worried about losing money. And I think a lot of people, you know, she was just Same way, they worried that if they put money in investments, they might lose it. But they don't realize that money putting money in the bank, they can lose money as well through inflation. So I think that you know, you become you can become, you know, comfortable having savings, but you cannot become rich through savings alone. So, I think it's important to learn to invest, learn how to invest so that you can at least maintain the value of money but also, you know, have some kind of like, increased wealth accumulation as well wealth, increasing your money as well. And I suppose the fourth thing is, educate yourself about money. You know, I, you know, I got PhD in history, but I'm very proud of that, but actually, you know, having knowledge about finances and money is also very powerful. as some people say, you know, money is one form of power. But what is more, what is more powerful is financial education, because money can be common goals, isn't it. So educate yourself about money you know about how money works, about investments, about retirement about pensions, about insurance, so that you can buy the right products and not avoid mis selling and scandals. And I suppose the final point is that we should not ignore money. I mean, money can be a positive force in our lives. And I when I look back to, to what my my sponsor did for me and how he changed my life inspires me to become rich, not for the sake of having money, but, but inspire me because I know that I have the power to change lives. You know, if you have money, you can have life choices. You can decide to work or not to work, you could decide to give the money away or to keep it yourself and you can help a lot of people in the process. So for me, money is a means to an end and it's good to have some so that you can choose how you live your life and help others in the process.

Jason Butler 55:00
It's a lovely, a lovely set of principles there. And as I say, very clear, and you say, taking responsibility, not letting life just push you around. And, and, and making your own way in the life. That's a great one, then you've been an absolute star. Thank you very much for your time today. very gracious of you. And the two books that you were talking about that we have written is the essential personal finance series. One is for students, and the other is to employees. And who knows after I get my next book out, which is, at the end of this year, you and I might have to get our collaboration boots back on and do something else. But this won't be the end of it. But thank you very much for your time, and all the very best.

Unknown Speaker 55:42
Thanks, Jason, for having me. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.

Jason Butler 55:48
Thanks for listening to true money stories with me Jason Butler. If you'd like what you hear, please do tell your friends, and more importantly, please rate us on your preferred podcast app. Because it really does help us get the message out there. So the to next time Good luck with your money journey.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai